All non-chain pubs should stick together and defy the ban,saying that there takings are suffering and they cannot manage.But they should divide the pub into Two sections,smoking and non-smoking so people then have a choice.If we keep letting this goverment dictate to us where will it end?I have not been to a pub since the ban out of principle.It will not be the same anymore.

Until the ban is lifted the English smoker should stay home from work or play.

No 2 section ,d pubs.

its been done now its 2 late as more & more people r not going 2 pubs,"cheaper buy the dozen" at major stores when buyin 12-24 packs,gettin 2 expensive any-way at pubs $2.00 a pint-not likely.

Smokers will not get used to it. Since there is the smoking ban in Malta my non smoking friend and me do hardly go out anymore especially in winter. So not only the smokers will stay away, but also their non smoking friends. Why should we spend our money at a restaurant, when we are not feeling comfortable anymore. By the way, the bars, which flout the law are still packed, they are easy to spot.

All this was avoidable but MPs preferred to listen to the biased codswallop that came from ASH and their smoke-hating friends.
The DoH has the nerve to say that the Consultation complied with Cabinet Office requirements yet their own list shows what 'stakeholders' they sent the documents to - almost 100% to anti-smoking groups and individuals that received funding directly or indirectly from themselves. Did they ask or listen to smokers and their tolerant non-smoking friends?
They are a disgrace and truly deserve real fishhooks spiked through their mouths until they stop telling lies, creating hatred and de-normalising normal members of the public.
Social health is vastly more important than any divisive anti-smoking measure.
Look for pro-choice groups like Freedom2Choose.co.uk and support their efforts to amend this destructive ban.

I agree whole heartedly with the quote about freedom 2 choose organiztion get and join them and quick:
You publicans open you're eyes....the government have got you all thinking exactly what they want you to think!
you can't seriousley believe that the weathers caused your slump in trade...if so WAKE UP!!!

There is no way people are going to 'get used to this'. That is one of the most naive assertions I have heard in all the debate about the ban. It is a constant thorn in the side to be drinking in a pub with friends, wanting to smoke, yet being unable to. How is that feeling ever going to go away if one likes to smoke when drinking? Smoking is a 'visceral pleasure' quite unlike the temptation, say, to drive faster than the speed limit. That is why so many people are up in arms about the ban - their desire to smoke is not going to go away.

Haven't been near a pub since the ridiculous ban came in.... and won't be going to one until it is lifted or ammended. I'm sorry the pub trade, bingo halls and many others will be hit but it just gives more people more reason to get together and oppsose the legislation in any way possible.

It's the elderly I feel sorry for, made to stand outside in all weathers or not go out to socialise at all.

It is heartening to see how many of the English have educated themselves on the anti-smoking movemnt rather than just rolling over and accepting everything they say as gospel truth. There is a real sense of resentment that such special interest groups have nagged their way into politics and have started dictating our lives. They have no business doing that. We did not vote for them. I will not go to a pub or club until this ban is lifted - not amended -lifted.

Unless you voted LibDem at the general Election, you did not vote for this disgraceful law. It has no democratic mandate. No mandate, no validity.

'.... but they believe it's going to get better' - open your eyes England, look at pub closure figures for Ireland and Scotland. Remember, if you work in a pub it could be your job that goes. Stand up against this ban.
freedom2choose.co.uk

F2C are a rag-tag bunch of rabid, pro-smokers and self-interests that couldn't give a toss about jobs or people's health, just the fact they want to smoke in a pub and tough luck to anybody else!

Businesses are irrelevant and you can't put a price on the health of a company's employees. What next? Bring back asbestos and lead in paint?!! Maybe send children back down the mines?

This is a massive advancement in employment and health legislation. If you're not able to understand that yet then nevermind, your children will thank you in future years for their extended longevity and increased lung capacity!

As with all countries that have introduced these new laws, they've been a complete success. Predictions of doom and gloom have never materialised, even whingers like yourself will go back to the pub when you realise the very reason you spend so long down there in the first place is better than listening to your nagging partners or slumped in front of the TV.

The future is bright and clear and it's a future without smoke!

F2C is far from a rag-tag bunch of "pro-smokers" Roger; It is an organised pro-choice group made up of both smokers and non-smokers.

This group, I am happy to say, is growing by the day to counter the lies and fraud upon which this fascist law is based and will ultimately be successful in in its aims.

Your assertion that the ban has been "a success" in Ireland is not merely untrue, it is the opposite of the truth. 1,300 permanently closed pubs and numerous other business is not a success. Fragmented communities is not a success. Social isolation is not a success. Criminalisation of the largest minority is not a success and the stealty adoption of fascist law is not a success.

All of this and more is heading your way unless the people wake up and see what is being done to them. Thankfully, that process is beginning to happen now, evidenced by the strong support of previous posters

Roger ... you slur people that you have never met. You must think we are crazy if you think that between us, we can't work out that this is not about health. You are quite wrong to say that 'business is irrelevant', or that the children of smokers or anybody else will have increased lung capacity as a result of this legislation. This is medieval legislation, designed with the idea that compromise, technological solutions and the will to make it work are impossiblities.

To Roger

Ever noticed the difference between pro choice posters and anti smoking posters, the former tend to deliver reasoned statements that support both sides of the argument, the latter tend to deliver bigoted and acerbic comment with no room for compromise.

I wonder why that is...

You obviously lack the sophistication to disseminate the information the government puts out, choosing to believe everything you are spoon fed about the ban.

F2C are anything but simply pro smoking, they clearly see the need for all people to have choice and would probably stand by your side if your choice was taken away.

On the other hand they might just not bother

Wake up and smell the coffee…..sorry that is dangerous..... unlike SHS.

Roger,

You seem rather alone in your argument here. Your views are supported by these guys though:

http://www.prisonpla
net.com/articles/apr
il2007/250407antismo
king.htm

"If they disagree with the ban, they must be pro-smokers."

Pathetic.

I am neither anti-smoking nor pro-smoking; all I assert is that both groups CAN be equally satisfied, but the total ban we've been landed with completely removes choice for smokers altogether. "Out in the street or not at all" is NOT a choice. This is why the ban is wrong, the ban will always be wrong, and the ban will be defeated one way or another.

Any statistical indications of health risks aren't so great that any kind of indoor smoking facilities must be prevented at all costs - it's total, utter madness. Smoking only venues, and smoking rooms within otherwise non-smoking venues, are perfectly acceptable compromises and impinge on nobody else's sensibilities... other than the rabid anti-smokers who have screaming fits should the very thought of smoking be mentioned.

As a country, it's high time we ceased listening to these bigots and switched our brains back on.

freedom2choose.co.uk

Roger, of all the places to comment from London! Perhaps you live in an old building with lead pipes and it has affected your brain.
I wonder what you do for a living, or don't you work, as bans don't just affect your local pub but all its suppliers, from alcohol to advertising.
Our ban here is seven years old, and smokers never returned to the establishments.
Bankruptcies and closures are common place here. Even my accountant retired as his business suffered so much.
Thankfully, most people here recognize the reality of bans.
Freedom to choose is a wonderful organization whose title says it all.
If you would like to tell me what you do for a living Roger, I will tell you what has happened to your line in my vicinity, because believe me, it has seriously affected all buisnesses including home improvement and factory production.

People will get used to it, is apprently the explanation for why trade is down?

I thought trade was going to boom as a result, that was what was said or have you forgotten already?

As for the 'stop moaning' comment, if that is what you think of your customers, then no wonder they don't come back. Perhaps if you supported them instead that would be a start.

west
----

There was a time when I felt the need to correct antagonizers but now...my heart is warmed by the vast number of people who are realizing the foolishness of the "science" behind secondhand smoke scares. More than that, as evidenced by the comment from Susan in Essex, people are now realizing that the claims that "everybody wants it" are equally fraudulent. Anti-ban advocates are clearly not pro-smoking and people who claim otherwise are seen as ill-informed, antismoking activists. To top it off, the ban in England has highlighted the fact that smoking bans simply don't work for economic, social, political and (yes) health reasons. The English experience is interesting because it is "boxed" in by other places, like Ireland, that have had bad experiences in implementing bans. Even in the US, most bans that have had any chance have been very relaxed or simply ignored. (Then again, Tobacco Control in the US is starting to look ridiculous to most people, e.g. the legislation for FDA approval of cigarettes but not allowing cigarette packages to state that they are FDA approved. That's just begging for a challenge on constitutional grounds.) Sometimes, I wonder if the English ban was made so stringent just to give people more incentive to overturn it. *shrug*

It most certainly will not get any better, it will get worse. This ban was introduced when the government believed the weather would be good, but we're not having a summer, so if trade is down now, it will only get worse in the winter months. It is most certainly down in all the towns I visit, not just in pubs, but in cafes and other places. People will get used to it, oh they will, will they?!! People don't wan't to get used to it - we get used to council taxes and other taxes rising, but we don't like it. What people want is freedom of choice - not to do as they are told all the time. We don't want to be bossed about all the time.
freedom2choose.co.uk

Jenny

Rodger, did asbestos go somewhere then. It still gets misdiagnosed, who do you think must surely get the blame?
http://www.hazards.o


rg/haz74/asbestoscon


cern.pdf#search=%22a


sbestos%20deaths%22

There are “hotspots” and
Asbestos should be a major
Issue in the politics and communities
Of those areas. This
is doubly important as many
asbestos-related deaths,
caused by workplace and
environmental exposures, still
go unattributed to asbestos.

Over 120 people have
died in Barking and Dagenham,
over 100 in Havering,
80 in Newham. In London as
a whole, 1,800 people have
died since the general election
– like Scotland, a death
every day for four years.
On the south coast, the
dockyards of Plymouth have
produced 612 deaths in
Devon, the second worst

As for the elderly, there are plenty of people trying to do something.
Did YOU write to age Concern at all?
I do not see anyone telling others to smoke either, so why the rabid remarks.
Why don't you open your non-smoking venues, then maybe you could get a few of your friends in there. They are not going to fill up all the other pubs are they?

http://www.lkaz.demo


n.co.uk/ban36.htm
3. Asbestos Not Tobacco Caused Cancer
Issue 36: Autumn 1999
3. Asbestos Not Tobacco Caused Cancer
Two years after his death, a ruling by the Court of Sessions in Edinburgh vindicated the efforts of William Smith's family to gain recognition and compensation for his asbestos-related illness. A plaintiff's verdict by Lord Bonomy awarded damages totalling £97,100 against Upper Clyde Shipbuilders (UCS), successors to John Brown Shipbuilders Ltd., Smith's former employers. This case was complicated by several factors: disputed medical evidence, the lack of a post-mortem and the decedent's history of heavy smoking. During the 1960s, Smith worked for five years as a coppersmith's assistant; UCS agreed that asbestos exposure could have occurred during this time

http://www.ipetition


s.com/tell-a-friend.


html?id=8a290f71
A blanket ban was NOT, wanted by the majority
If you think this ban is wrong and you would like a voice,
Please go to http://www.freedom2c


hoose.co.uk/
The new sister site to http://www.thebigdeb


ate.org/
Online petition, download petitions,
Debates, links so you can make your own judgment,
WE NEED TO FIGHT THIS TOGETHER
We need to get this ban amended to include ventilation,
Please help us, with your support and donations are very welcome, large or small

I post on http://www.freedom2c
hoose.co.uk all the time, about the fact that there has never been proven any harm from ETS what-so-ever (which is the FACT), that Sir Richard Doll was paid by oil and automotive industries to lie about smoking to deflect attention from the real causes of cancer and how Big Pharma currently pays to create a marketing frenzy built on lies, hate and prejudice that funds the press and non-profits in order to sell nicotine products.

And frankly, I don't smoke.

Go figure.

You dirty rotten lot from F2C! Taking up all that space so poor Roger can't reply. Please let him in to defend his stance...we all need a good laugh.

Hello to all my friends and keep up the good work. Roger, a word of caution. Be choosy whose rug you pee on next time.

Roger? Isn't he the lodger?

The smoking ban is nanny-state gone mad. It has got nothing to do whatsoever with the good of peoples' health but it has everything to do with a government, aided and abetted by the medical profession, ASH (a supposed charity but funded by the government through the NHS - to me that makes it a government department and not a charity therefore it's charitable status should be withdrawn), the World Health Organisation (WHO) all of whom are being funded by the big pharmas who are making a massive profit selling their anti-smoking products.

These people spout on about the so-called dangers of ETS yet when challenged they do not have one single shred of evidence to back up their outrageous statements and lies - which, unfortunately some very gullible people have been brainwashed into believing.

There is room for both smoking and non-smoking establishments, smoking and non-smoking areas.

Whatever happened to compromise and tolerance?

As a someone who suffers from asthma i support the smoking ban entirley. before this ban came into place I could not enter a bar or restraunt without brething in other people's smoke thus making me cough uncontrolably. I had to use my inhaler constantly. wereas now I can enjoy a drink at any pub with my friends without coughing other people's smoke. so people should start taking that into account before they start drizzling about their 'rights' to smoke

It's good that you are feeling better edward, tobacco smoke is known to cause asthma and just think of the thousands that will be saved from this potentially fatal affliction!

Smoking bans have enjoyed much popularity throughout the world as more and more countries get the message that the health and future of their children are more important than an outdated minority group shivering in the cold through their addiction. Over half of the US population now have smokefree laws! Of course IF there was any chance that their were negative economic effects, you know those greedy americans just wouldn't go for it!

9 out of 10 cases of lung cancer occur in smokers, 'nuff said!

Yes Edward, it is good that you can now go into the 'soon to close' smoke free pub.
Contrary to popular believe, tobacco smoke does NOT cause athsma, in fact, many athsma sufferers actually find relief in smoking, surprising, but true!
My ex-wife is one such athsma sufferer, when she gave up smoking, her athsma came back.
Sorry for appearing fascecious, but there is no reason at all for you to have suffered in the first place. Adequate ventillation and perhaps separate smoking areas indoors would suffice for all to co-exist and keep our great British pub.
Some of my Canadian friends thought the law was a great success, until they realised that the reason the places they visited were full was because so many other places had closed!!!!
Next for the health fascists??? http://news.bbc.co.u

k/1/hi/health/350205

3.stm
They'll leave that one a little longer perhaps & remember, an all out smoking ban was NOT on the government's agenda either

As has been said Smoking or Passive Smoke does not cause Asthma, it may trigger it in some, but not in others, air fresheners also trigger some, as with open fires. The object is to remove the carcinogens, toxins and smoke to 99.97%. That is F2C's wish. We can prove indoor air quality can be fresher than outside. Problem solved. It is quite amazing how by the day more and more junk science is saying ETS causes any number of diseases. When you investigate. We get the same old words, 'could', 'maybe', 'we believe', 'we estimate' never the evidence 'proves'. Why do readers think that is? Visit www.freedom2choose.c
o.uk and find out the truth and then support the campaign to amend the regulations. Choice for all in a democracy is fundamental to a free and democratic society. My rights as a non smoker are no more important than a smokers. Anyone who believes so obviously follows the edict in Animal Farm. You remember, 'all pigs are equal but some are more equal than others.

The government issue a no smoking ban in all enclosed areas, so why does that not include the Bar, Restaurant in the House of Commons, no smoking ban there, MP's are happily puffing away !!!

I'm a smoker and this ban does not effect me because i will just stay home and smoke as much as i want and if i fancy a drink i will buy a cheap bottle from my cheap supermarket and sit at home and do what i like and not be told what i can and can't do. It people who work in the business of bars, clubs and restaurants you are the ones who will be out of pocket and out of work! Good luck to you i will still have a job thanks!

Until the ban kicked into action, I used to have my morning double expresso and fag and lunch everyday in my local establishments. Since then I just go to my local Tesco. I'd rather eat microwave meals than look at the smug faces of the no-smoking fascists. Why do they insist on dragging their brats around with them like some bloody kindergarten? The English public house is now officially dead. R I bloody P

I to have not been in a bar since the ban started,along with friends and family we now have smoking and drinking sessions at our homes.until of course this is banned