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Suicidal thoughts after stillborn baby mix-up
11:30am Wednesday 26th March 2008
Comments (58)
By Dan Keel and Robert Fisk »
A MOTHER says she "seriously considered killing" herself after missing her stillborn daughter's funeral because of a hospital mix-up.
Lisa Fenton is planning to sue Darent Valley Hospital, Dartford, because of the error and problems she says she experienced during her pregnancy.
She wanted the chance to say goodbye to her daughter, Alicia Meg, who was born at 13 weeks with heart defects after Mrs Fenton had an induced miscarriage.
Together with her mother, Mrs Fenton attended a crematorium service which she thought was for Alicia on December 20, 2005.
But four weeks later she got a call from the hospital chaplain who asked why she was not at the funeral service for her baby.
She rang the hospital which apologised for the mistake and said they had given her the wrong date and she had gone to the wrong funeral.
Mrs Fenton, who has three other children, said that she had months of counselling after the ordeal and that she contemplated suicide.
She said: "It has had a serious effect on my life.
"To think that I couldn't be there for her when she was cremated is the worse thing.
"I had so much counselling and I have to admit that I seriously considered killing myself."
The 39-year-old added: "To think we grieved at the wrong funeral and never got to attend Alicia's funeral service is heart-wrenching for us all."
"Hospitals need to have a better understanding of what women go through when giving birth to babies they know are not going to survive.
"I also wonder if any other parent has grieved at the wrong funeral.
"I wouldn't wish that emotional suffering on anyone."
A spokesman for the Dartford and Gravesham NHS Trust said: "We have offered our sincere apologies to Mrs Fenton for providing the incorrect date for her baby's funeral. We have since thoroughly reviewed our procedures and introduced new systems to minimise the risk of this happening in the future."
Your Say YourShopper
ClockWatcher, Welling says...
11:52am Wed 26 Mar 08
Darent Valley should be utterly ashamed.
What they have done to Mrs Fenton and her family is unforgiveable.
To have denied the family the right to say their final goodbyes is dispicable.
I hope they never have to experience anything as heart breaking as loosing a loved one.
What they have done to Mrs Fenton and her family is unforgiveable.
To have denied the family the right to say their final goodbyes is dispicable.
I hope they never have to experience anything as heart breaking as loosing a loved one.
Jade, N/Fleet says...
12:08pm Wed 26 Mar 08
How tragic! What this woman has gone through is diabolical! Why are these institutions so insensitive and incompetant, it makes my blood boil! I hope Mrs Fenton recovers from the traumatic experience quickly, my heart goes out to her and her family. She must have been so grief stricken at the first funeral to not realise it was for a different baby to her own. The family of this other baby must have been equally baffled by the presence of a grieving stranger. How awful!
theword, here and there says...
12:33pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Surely the babies name was mentioned at the start of the service?This is an awfull thing to happen!
The real Me, Here says...
1:09pm Wed 26 Mar 08
theword wrote:Another totally inappropriate comment from theword. Have a little decency you wally!
Surely the babies name was mentioned at the start of the service?This is an awfull thing to happen!
rob, d/ford says...
1:11pm Wed 26 Mar 08
totally agree with above comments about this being a disgrace which it is,but can i ask the obvious question why has it taken over 2 years for this to come to light?
Sunny, London says...
1:58pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Although the situation is tragic surely a mother of 3 children wouldn't want to let them down by them losing their mommy?
Lauren, Sidcup says...
2:39pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Sunny wrote:Quite.
Although the situation is tragic surely a mother of 3 children wouldn't want to let them down by them losing their mommy?
It dont wash with me, MONEY MONEY says...
2:44pm Wed 26 Mar 08
rob wrote:Because the money she is hoping to receive will make it all better !!!!!!!!
totally agree with above comments about this being a disgrace which it is,but can i ask the obvious question why has it taken over 2 years for this to come to light?
Induced miscarriage is actually an abortion !!!!!!!
The plot thickens
The real Me, Here says...
2:56pm today Wed 26 Mar 08
It dont wash with me wrote:Oooooh! Controversial!
rob wrote: totally agree with above comments about this being a disgrace which it is,but can i ask the obvious question why has it taken over 2 years for this to come to light?Because the money she is hoping to receive will make it all better !!!!!!!! Induced miscarriage is actually an abortion !!!!!!! The plot thickens
I can see a blog for Lord Erastus already writing itself....
Sian, Bexley says...
2:58pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Together with her mother, Mrs Fenton attended a crematorium service which she thought was for Alicia on December 20, 2005.
Just the 2 of them ? What about the childs father ?? Sad
Just the 2 of them ? What about the childs father ?? Sad
Its all about the Money, says...
3:11pm Wed 26 Mar 08
The real Me wrote:But dont you think somethings wrong here ?
It dont wash with me wrote:Oooooh! Controversial! I can see a blog for Lord Erastus already writing itself....rob wrote: totally agree with above comments about this being a disgrace which it is,but can i ask the obvious question why has it taken over 2 years for this to come to light?Because the money she is hoping to receive will make it all better !!!!!!!! Induced miscarriage is actually an abortion !!!!!!! The plot thickens
Yes come on Erastus where are you ?
kate, london says...
3:16pm Wed 26 Mar 08
13weeks preggers u dont even know wot sex it is, so how she know it was a girl all weird
informed, london says...
4:11pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Kate -
By 13 weeks you would be able to tell the sex once the baby was born. Even earlier through blood tests. On a scan you cannot tell, but the sex is determined very early on in prenancy
By 13 weeks you would be able to tell the sex once the baby was born. Even earlier through blood tests. On a scan you cannot tell, but the sex is determined very early on in prenancy
Georgia, Kent says...
4:14pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Sorry but if she attended the wrong funeral, then that must mean another set of parents did not get to say goodbye to there child?? Clearly there was another mistake made there too?!!
Me, Tea-break says...
4:33pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Why do you all keep asking after Erastus? Dont you have minds of your own.
bored, u.s.a says...
4:34pm Wed 26 Mar 08
you are all mugs!! its all about money!!!!!!!!!!
Jade, N/Fleet says...
5:15pm Wed 26 Mar 08
bored wrote:I doubt it is to do with money. That is a very cruel allegation. This woman has gone through an extremely painful trauma of losing a child and enduring a pointless pregnancy! The psychological and physical effects this must have on her alone, is it any wonder she feels suicidal? My sympathies are totally with her for what she has been through, this is a time when people should be extra kind and caring towards her, not torturing her further!
you are all mugs!! its all about money!!!!!!!!!!
ClockWatcher, Welling says...
6:08pm Wed 26 Mar 08
Sunny wrote:Depression affects people in very unusual ways.
Although the situation is tragic surely a mother of 3 children wouldn't want to let them down by them losing their mommy?
I lost a friend of mine a few years ago - she had post-natal depression and killed herself 4 weeks after her baby girl was born.
have to agree, says...
6:19pm Wed 26 Mar 08
at 13wks old a fetus is only 2 inches long, you dont have a funeral for a 13wk fetus either, you cant tell the sex of the fetus and it isnt called stillborn! and the lady had an abortion. Newshopper have written this to sound like it was a full term baby and a misscarraige
I am tending to agree with some of the people who thinks this is about money sorry!
I am tending to agree with some of the people who thinks this is about money sorry!
j, says...
6:20pm Wed 26 Mar 08
firstly I disagree that 'induced miscarriage'is another term for abortion. it clearly says in the story the baby had heart defects and maybe there was a very strong chance she would have lost the baby and could have been advised to follow this route. in any case I very much doubt it was a decision taken lightly. And as for the 'absent' father, he may not be absent at all and to be quite honest, if he is or not, what has that got to do with things. I think this is a really tragic story and anyone who's ever given birth will say, you worry enough that your baby will be ok, without your worst fears coming true and then have the finger pointed at you because you may or may not be a single mother?
anon, dartford says...
7:00pm Wed 26 Mar 08
It does not matter at what stage you lose a child, a child is still a child and grief is a very real thing, that can cause some extremes of emotion and thought, sometimes quite irrational. The story quite clearly states this poor baby had serious defects. No doubt the mother would have had some very emotional times dealing with all of this. It does not matter how small this child was it was obviously still loved.
To the mother - my total understanding and sympathies for what you have been through
To everyone else here who does not understand, please refrain from posting hurtful comments about things you may never understand unless you have had the misfortune to go there.
To the mother - my total understanding and sympathies for what you have been through
To everyone else here who does not understand, please refrain from posting hurtful comments about things you may never understand unless you have had the misfortune to go there.
a.n., says...
7:20pm Wed 26 Mar 08
A stillborn baby is born after 24 weeks, before that it is classed as a miscarriage. That reporters error is misleading.
You can arrange for a funeral after a miscarriage, the doctor or midwife can sign the papers although the death does not have to be registered.
A miscarriage, or any loss of a baby at any stage of its development affects people differently - it can be very upsetting, families should be allowed to grieve.
You can sex a baby at 13 weeks, an early scan may have shown up a heart defect - perhaps there was a family history of problems like this. There is such a thing as an induced miscarriage on medical grounds if the baby or mothers health are at risk - call it an abortion if you want, if you are just trying to be spiteful.
I think this is a very sad story and the hospital should be ashamed.
You can arrange for a funeral after a miscarriage, the doctor or midwife can sign the papers although the death does not have to be registered.
A miscarriage, or any loss of a baby at any stage of its development affects people differently - it can be very upsetting, families should be allowed to grieve.
You can sex a baby at 13 weeks, an early scan may have shown up a heart defect - perhaps there was a family history of problems like this. There is such a thing as an induced miscarriage on medical grounds if the baby or mothers health are at risk - call it an abortion if you want, if you are just trying to be spiteful.
I think this is a very sad story and the hospital should be ashamed.
Loo, Brom says...
8:45pm Wed 26 Mar 08
At the end of the day, wheteher it was an abortion, miscarrage whatever, this lady still lost her unborn child. The hospital are at fault as thay could of spared her a little more hurt by telling her the right date!
i say sue the hospital american style!
i say sue the hospital american style!
May, London says...
10:46pm Wed 26 Mar 08
I agree with anon. I had the misfortune of miscarrying at the 11 week stage. I wasn't outwardly upset, but I had terrible nightmares for weeks afterwards of dead babies and children with torn limbs. The mother must be extremely emotional and distraught, to add to her suffering through incompetence in a field where we expect a high standard of professionalism is outrageous! I don't think the overburdened NHS should be sued but the person who gave her the wrong details ought to be suspended or perhaps sacked. What do other readers think?
me, here, dartford says...
11:15pm Wed 26 Mar 08
it is a known fact that babies die before 14 weeks, i for 1 was a mum of 4 but have 2 children. It happens!
anon, Bexley says...
9:18am Thu 27 Mar 08
This is a tragic thing to happen and i agree that the hospital needs to look into how something so serious can be mixed up. However, sueing the already cash strapped NHS will not bring that day back to this woman and i just do not feel that this will solve anything or prevent this happening again. Something needs to be done to prevent other mothers/fathers from going through this - giving her money wont solve anything!!
L, says...
9:28am Thu 27 Mar 08
me, here wrote:This makes no sense - are you saying you had 2 miscarriages? I have too and I had a neonatal death at 39 weeks due to the fact that my baby had heart defects, I chose not to abort (yes abort) as I am a Christian and do not believe in it. Yes they happen but to say it is a known fact is rather sweeping.
it is a known fact that babies die before 14 weeks, i for 1 was a mum of 4 but have 2 children. It happens!
sarah, orpington says...
9:51am Thu 27 Mar 08
my son was stillborn at 29 weeks, i had every opportunity to sue a London hospital but i didn't as it doesn't ease the pain nor does it bring back the baby.
Also i sorted my son's funeral out myself, it's not down to anyone else.
i'm sorry for your loss but look forward not back, money is not the answer
Also i sorted my son's funeral out myself, it's not down to anyone else.
i'm sorry for your loss but look forward not back, money is not the answer
L, says...
12:03pm Thu 27 Mar 08
sarah wrote:You are so right! I hope you are coping ok now.
my son was stillborn at 29 weeks, i had every opportunity to sue a London hospital but i didn't as it doesn't ease the pain nor does it bring back the baby. Also i sorted my son's funeral out myself, it's not down to anyone else. i'm sorry for your loss but look forward not back, money is not the answer
I think that actually planning the funeral yourself is quite therapeutic
l, says...
1:21pm Thu 27 Mar 08
me, here wrote:Even if this statement was true which it isn't. This baby did not "die" it was aborted.
it is a known fact that babies die before 14 weeks, i for 1 was a mum of 4 but have 2 children. It happens!
Molls, says...
6:32pm Thu 27 Mar 08
L - yes, miscarriages do happen, it is a fact (if you care to look it up or wish to speak to professional health worker). Between 10-20% of all pregnancies end with a spontaneous miscarriage within the first 12 weeks of development. There are also a very large number of pregnancies that even don't reach that stage. Obviously there are no exact figures but it happens.
What do you seriously think "me" meant, it's obvious that she has lost two babies.
Your choice was your choice to carry your baby for 39 weeks. Why have you felt it necessary to write "(yes, abort)", I hope you are not trying to criticise or judge this poor lady or any other women who have taken the very difficult choice to abort their baby - that wouldn't be a very Christian attitude to have would it, ever heard of understanding and forgiveness.
What do you seriously think "me" meant, it's obvious that she has lost two babies.
Your choice was your choice to carry your baby for 39 weeks. Why have you felt it necessary to write "(yes, abort)", I hope you are not trying to criticise or judge this poor lady or any other women who have taken the very difficult choice to abort their baby - that wouldn't be a very Christian attitude to have would it, ever heard of understanding and forgiveness.
jodie, bromley says...
6:35pm Thu 27 Mar 08
I HATE THIS HOSPITAL IT HAS NEVER DONE ANY OF MY FAMILY ANY GOOD AND HELPED MY GRANDAD DIE BUT NOT GIVING HIM THE RIGHT MEDICINE I REALY FEEL FOR THIS MOTHER AND HOPE DARRENT VALLEY SORT THEM SELFS OUT FAST!! SAYING SORRY WONT LESSEN THE PAIN WOT A DISGRACE!
polly, says...
7:22pm Thu 27 Mar 08
This lady has asked if anyone else has grieved at the wrong hospital - sadly of course they have, the parents who attended her babies funeral.
It is a sad story, the hospital have been very cruel and careless however I don't know that suing them is really the answer, what will it achieve.
It is a sad story, the hospital have been very cruel and careless however I don't know that suing them is really the answer, what will it achieve.
L, says...
10:28pm Thu 27 Mar 08
Molls wrote:Actually, I am a Healthcare professional and I am not saying that miscarriages do not happen, of course they do what I was questioning is the point that was made that "it is a known fact that babies die before 14 weeks" death up to 24 weeks is classed as a miscarriage.
L - yes, miscarriages do happen, it is a fact (if you care to look it up or wish to speak to professional health worker). Between 10-20% of all pregnancies end with a spontaneous miscarriage within the first 12 weeks of development. There are also a very large number of pregnancies that even don't reach that stage. Obviously there are no exact figures but it happens. What do you seriously think "me" meant, it's obvious that she has lost two babies. Your choice was your choice to carry your baby for 39 weeks. Why have you felt it necessary to write "(yes, abort)", I hope you are not trying to criticise or judge this poor lady or any other women who have taken the very difficult choice to abort their baby - that wouldn't be a very Christian attitude to have would it, ever heard of understanding and forgiveness.
I am not judging anyone, as someone else has said it is very odd for someone to abort a baby but then feel agrieved at not attending a funeral. I do not need to forgive - this lady has not hurt me, and I do understand having been in the same position personally but all I was saying is that as a Christian I believe abortion is wrong, life is God given and not ours to take. As a healthcare professional I care for babies born as early as 22 weeks and who fight hard to live
molls, says...
5:11am Fri 28 Mar 08
I don't see why you are questioning the point that "babies die before 14 weeks", so what if it is called a miscarriage, in a lot of peoples minds it is a baby and it has died, doesn't matter how developed or old it is.
I too am a health professional, if I had strong beliefs that abortion was wrong I think I would find it very difficult working in obs/gynae, and I would not want a member of staff looking after me, if I were having a termination, if they thought it was wrong. If you work in this area at some stage you must have had to look after women undergoing abortions.
Why do you think it is odd for this lady to be upset because she didn't attend the funeral, she didn't go because the hospital gave her the wrong information. No-one here knows how she felt about having to terminate her pregnancy. Perhaps it was the most sensible choice for all concerned, rather than carrying the baby further knowing that it may well not of survived. Some women find it easier to have an early termination both physically and psychologically, you of all people should really know that.
I too am a health professional, if I had strong beliefs that abortion was wrong I think I would find it very difficult working in obs/gynae, and I would not want a member of staff looking after me, if I were having a termination, if they thought it was wrong. If you work in this area at some stage you must have had to look after women undergoing abortions.
Why do you think it is odd for this lady to be upset because she didn't attend the funeral, she didn't go because the hospital gave her the wrong information. No-one here knows how she felt about having to terminate her pregnancy. Perhaps it was the most sensible choice for all concerned, rather than carrying the baby further knowing that it may well not of survived. Some women find it easier to have an early termination both physically and psychologically, you of all people should really know that.
L, says...
9:45am Fri 28 Mar 08
molls wrote:Actually I do not work in obs/gynae for that very reason - I already said I look after premature babies.
I don't see why you are questioning the point that "babies die before 14 weeks", so what if it is called a miscarriage, in a lot of peoples minds it is a baby and it has died, doesn't matter how developed or old it is. I too am a health professional, if I had strong beliefs that abortion was wrong I think I would find it very difficult working in obs/gynae, and I would not want a member of staff looking after me, if I were having a termination, if they thought it was wrong. If you work in this area at some stage you must have had to look after women undergoing abortions. Why do you think it is odd for this lady to be upset because she didn't attend the funeral, she didn't go because the hospital gave her the wrong information. No-one here knows how she felt about having to terminate her pregnancy. Perhaps it was the most sensible choice for all concerned, rather than carrying the baby further knowing that it may well not of survived. Some women find it easier to have an early termination both physically and psychologically, you of all people should really know that.
I can not see how termination is ever a sensible choice but I guess we will have to agree to differ on that one!
I had the horrid situation of having to stand my ground against having an abortion when told my son had serious cardiac defects - I also think that the opposite is true- I did not like the fact that the Doctor caring for me made it blatantly clear that I wanted to give my baby every chance and that I felt that abortion was not an option due to my beliefs - she actually told me that I was wrong! You have to look at both sides of this.
molls, says...
5:37pm Fri 28 Mar 08
Never said you did work in obs/gynae.
Yes we will have to agree to differ but termination can be a sensible choice.
If a baby has died you can develop complications such as DIC, infections etc as you know. You have to have a D&C then.
Also there may be women, given the choice,who would find it much easier having an early termination than having to go through the emotional and physical trauma of a stillbirth/late miscarriage or seeing their very ill baby being born very prematurely knowing it will only survive a very short time. There is also the situation when a woman may feel it better to have a termination rather than continue if the baby is carrying a hereditary disorder. There are very difficult choices women and men have to take during a pregnancy. Perhaps other women feel that way too.
My only belieffis as health workers we put our personal feelings aside and act purely on medical knowledge and experience.
Yes we will have to agree to differ but termination can be a sensible choice.
If a baby has died you can develop complications such as DIC, infections etc as you know. You have to have a D&C then.
Also there may be women, given the choice,who would find it much easier having an early termination than having to go through the emotional and physical trauma of a stillbirth/late miscarriage or seeing their very ill baby being born very prematurely knowing it will only survive a very short time. There is also the situation when a woman may feel it better to have a termination rather than continue if the baby is carrying a hereditary disorder. There are very difficult choices women and men have to take during a pregnancy. Perhaps other women feel that way too.
My only belieffis as health workers we put our personal feelings aside and act purely on medical knowledge and experience.
L, says...
7:31pm Fri 28 Mar 08
molls wrote:If you can always put your personal belifs aside you are very unusual.
Never said you did work in obs/gynae. Yes we will have to agree to differ but termination can be a sensible choice. If a baby has died you can develop complications such as DIC, infections etc as you know. You have to have a D&C then. Also there may be women, given the choice,who would find it much easier having an early termination than having to go through the emotional and physical trauma of a stillbirth/late miscarriage or seeing their very ill baby being born very prematurely knowing it will only survive a very short time. There is also the situation when a woman may feel it better to have a termination rather than continue if the baby is carrying a hereditary disorder. There are very difficult choices women and men have to take during a pregnancy. Perhaps other women feel that way too. My only belieffis as health workers we put our personal feelings aside and act purely on medical knowledge and experience.
You mention a baby being dead i.u that and having to have a D&C is a very different situation to a live baby being killed. I have had to have 2 D&Cs due to early miscarriage in addition to a neonatal death. NOONE knows how long or if a baby will live whether born at term or preterm. I do not feel it is the right of ANY of us - Doctors or nurses - to play God.
I would never try to force my beliefs on a patient - fortunately these questions do not arise in NICU since most of the parents are desparate for their babies to live. However, in relation to this story I am not at work and am allowed to have personal opinions the same as you.
A, Kent says...
9:53pm Fri 28 Mar 08
Sorry to interrupt your debate but can either of you, (MOLLs & L), explain the term stillborn as applied to this article? I always thought it meant that the baby was not alive at the moment of birth. Judging by some of the above comments people have been fairly judgemental and callous in their remarks regarding Mrs Fenton's predicament and applying the term 'abortion'. The article clearly states that 'Lisa Fenton is planning to sue Darent Valley Hospital, Dartford, because of the error and problems she says she experienced during her pregnancy'. Which I understand as a possible failure by the hospital in the care of this pregnancy leading up to the miscarriage. She is suicidal! How can people be so cruel as to suggest this is all about money! I hope Mrs Fenton and family do not have the misfortune of reading some of the above harsh comments!
L, says...
11:48pm Fri 28 Mar 08
A wrote:Yes, this lady had an "induced miscarriage" i.e an abortion at 13 weeks which is what the article says. It would appear that the baby had heart defects which is presumably why she decided to terminate the prgnancy. A stillbirth is the term applied to a baby born dead after 24 weeks completed gestation. (The fact that babies are now surviving at 22+ weeks not withstanding)This is the reason people seem to be less than sympathetic - from the article this lady chose to abort her baby at 13 weeks - a point at which there is no legal requirement for a funeral and they are not the norm, most mothers who have a spontaneous miscarriage that early have memorial services to help them grieve for their baby. There seems to be more to this than has been reported but I hope this answers your question?
Sorry to interrupt your debate but can either of you, (MOLLs & L), explain the term stillborn as applied to this article? I always thought it meant that the baby was not alive at the moment of birth. Judging by some of the above comments people have been fairly judgemental and callous in their remarks regarding Mrs Fenton's predicament and applying the term 'abortion'. The article clearly states that 'Lisa Fenton is planning to sue Darent Valley Hospital, Dartford, because of the error and problems she says she experienced during her pregnancy'. Which I understand as a possible failure by the hospital in the care of this pregnancy leading up to the miscarriage. She is suicidal! How can people be so cruel as to suggest this is all about money! I hope Mrs Fenton and family do not have the misfortune of reading some of the above harsh comments!
molls, says...
2:15am Sat 29 Mar 08
People often quote that "doctors and nurses play God". I wonder do we "play God" by keeping people alive by artificial means i.e. ventilators, artificial feeding and fluids, having rescusciation if you have a cardiac arrest, having non-human heart valves or cells grown outside the body
Maybe some people are happy for us to "play God" but only if it achieves a positive outcome.
Getting back to the original subject -
I think that people may be less sympathetic when the term "abortion" is used because it is a very emotive issue and carries negative connotations.
I think it is very nice and very normal to want to have a funeral or a memorial service for an early death. I don't know if a 13 week fetus would be cremated, have to look it up, don't see why not. I think some of the trouble with this discussion is that it has been badly reported for the reasons people have given.
Maybe some people are happy for us to "play God" but only if it achieves a positive outcome.
Getting back to the original subject -
I think that people may be less sympathetic when the term "abortion" is used because it is a very emotive issue and carries negative connotations.
I think it is very nice and very normal to want to have a funeral or a memorial service for an early death. I don't know if a 13 week fetus would be cremated, have to look it up, don't see why not. I think some of the trouble with this discussion is that it has been badly reported for the reasons people have given.
L, says...
1:42pm Sat 29 Mar 08
molls wrote:I agree, the reprting has not been very accurate. I actually think this article may well have caused more harm than good.
People often quote that "doctors and nurses play God". I wonder do we "play God" by keeping people alive by artificial means i.e. ventilators, artificial feeding and fluids, having rescusciation if you have a cardiac arrest, having non-human heart valves or cells grown outside the body Maybe some people are happy for us to "play God" but only if it achieves a positive outcome. Getting back to the original subject - I think that people may be less sympathetic when the term "abortion" is used because it is a very emotive issue and carries negative connotations. I think it is very nice and very normal to want to have a funeral or a memorial service for an early death. I don't know if a 13 week fetus would be cremated, have to look it up, don't see why not. I think some of the trouble with this discussion is that it has been badly reported for the reasons people have given.
In realtion to playing God, I do think that putting someone on a ventilator is rather different than abortion since we can only use our God given skills to try to help but if it is not to be just being on a vent or having a new heart valve or whatever will not keep someone alive. Abortion on the other hand as with euthanasia is different since we do not give the person / baby a chance we just kill them!
Maybe the writers at the Newsshopper need to look at their writing style.
diane, gravesend says...
2:26pm Sat 29 Mar 08
kate wrote:When you have a scan at Kings college they also give you what is known as a CVS, this takes a piece of the placenta and check for all the deffects this baby had, it also tells the mother and father the sex of the baby. Why do so many people think that they know all the background of this tragic story.
13weeks preggers u dont even know wot sex it is, so how she know it was a girl all weird
miss.appropriate, kent says...
3:20pm Sat 29 Mar 08
This is an unfortunate blunder and i feel for the other parents also,they too have lost a child.And wouldn't any parent notice that the wrong name was being mentioned in the service?As for the suicidal bid,well,mmmmm?????I suppose one would have to make the situation sound worse than what it is to get the results of what one would expect.But Mrs.Fenton isn't the only woman in the world that has lost a child and certainly won't be the last,and Mrs.Fenton isn't the only person in the world to fall victim to a mistake made by an authority.The authority has admitted that it made a mistake and the submission and the apology of them being wrong should be satisfactory,MONEY will NOT bring back the child OR wipe out the memory of this tragic event,so whats the point of sueing?Be grateful of what you already have and don't be so materialistic.
L, says...
4:26pm Sat 29 Mar 08
diane wrote:You can tell the sex at 13 weeks on an appropriate scan and also after the abortion it would have been possible.
kate wrote: 13weeks preggers u dont even know wot sex it is, so how she know it was a girl all weirdWhen you have a scan at Kings college they also give you what is known as a CVS, this takes a piece of the placenta and check for all the deffects this baby had, it also tells the mother and father the sex of the baby. Why do so many people think that they know all the background of this tragic story.
Once again the bad reporting is to blame....
Michelle, Gravesend says...
7:15pm Sat 29 Mar 08
Ordinarily I wouldn't read, let alone write on a forum. I am writing because Lisa is a good friend of mine and she has heard that there is a forum about her and some of it is quite nasty. Therefore, I will not stand by whilst people are posting horrid comments and accusations about her.
Thank you to all that have expressed their sympathies for her situation - To those of you who have been judgemental and downright nasty - This case is not about a moral issue or about money, this is about Darenth Valley Hospital facing up to the disgusting way that Lisa was treated whilst in their care, aside from the terrible blunder with the cremation service. You haven't the slightest idea what Lisa has been through, the story in the press doesn't give very much detail about the circumstances surrounding her complaint. This has actually been in the hands of her solicitors for over two years, and has now come to light due to legal reasons. As for those of you judging the situation regarding her 'thoughts of suicide' and 'non present' father at the cremation - how can you be so heartless ! It has nothing to do with the case. I hope that all of you who are making these nasty comments realise that what you are saying is actually slander ! This is a public site, and although each of us are entitled our own opinion there are limits ! Are you so sad and without a life that you have to comment so viciously (without all the facts you cannot make an informed decision) about this tragic report.
Thank you to all that have expressed their sympathies for her situation - To those of you who have been judgemental and downright nasty - This case is not about a moral issue or about money, this is about Darenth Valley Hospital facing up to the disgusting way that Lisa was treated whilst in their care, aside from the terrible blunder with the cremation service. You haven't the slightest idea what Lisa has been through, the story in the press doesn't give very much detail about the circumstances surrounding her complaint. This has actually been in the hands of her solicitors for over two years, and has now come to light due to legal reasons. As for those of you judging the situation regarding her 'thoughts of suicide' and 'non present' father at the cremation - how can you be so heartless ! It has nothing to do with the case. I hope that all of you who are making these nasty comments realise that what you are saying is actually slander ! This is a public site, and although each of us are entitled our own opinion there are limits ! Are you so sad and without a life that you have to comment so viciously (without all the facts you cannot make an informed decision) about this tragic report.
molls, says...
8:37pm Sat 29 Mar 08
L - we agree on something! - seriously though this is a very badly written story. On another note, ventilators do keep people alive, they are used as part of organ donation. Heart valves, non-human grafts etc. definitely prolong your life when without them you would die naturally. Debatable but not what we are here for.
Michelle - agree this are some silly comments here, there always are on this site I'm afraid. Unfortunately as soon as the word "sue" gets mentioned some people do make negative judgements. It is a public forum, not sure negative comments are slanderous. Maybe the trouble is, when you talk to a newspaper, you cannot guarantee they will print what you want them to print and I think you have to accept that not everyone will share your views or be sympathetic. The paper has made some fundamental errors in their reporting and perhaps it is them that you should really all be angry at.
That is a risk you take when you talk to the press I'm afraid.
Michelle - agree this are some silly comments here, there always are on this site I'm afraid. Unfortunately as soon as the word "sue" gets mentioned some people do make negative judgements. It is a public forum, not sure negative comments are slanderous. Maybe the trouble is, when you talk to a newspaper, you cannot guarantee they will print what you want them to print and I think you have to accept that not everyone will share your views or be sympathetic. The paper has made some fundamental errors in their reporting and perhaps it is them that you should really all be angry at.
That is a risk you take when you talk to the press I'm afraid.
M, Kent says...
3:08am Sun 30 Mar 08
As i understand it Darent Valley hospital has made a formal public apology to this lady and have admitted their mistake,they have also reviewed their procedures to minimise the risk of this happening again,what more can they do?Money will not change what has happened and will not compensate for her loss,just improve her quality of life.
Michelle, Gravesend says...
1:07pm Sun 30 Mar 08
M, Kent - You misunderstand. Darenth Valley Hospital has admitted the mistakes regarding the cremation service blunders, but this was only done once a solicitor was instructed without which these recently made procedures would not have been put into place. However, as stated in my first post this case is based on the issues of her treatment whilst in the care of Darenth Valley Hospital. To top off all the negligent actions and other issues with this case the final straw for Lisa was that they royally messed up with the cremation service. We all know the NHS has little funding, that's down to politics, however if they were more careful with their patients people wouldn't feel the need to sue - If this was in America, none of you would bat an eyelid that she is suing ! Yes the money (if she gets any ) will not change what has happened, Lisa will never forget this tragic episode in her life, but maybe just maybe, by her suing the hospital, further changes will be brought about so that no one else would have to endure this pain and torment.
AJ, says...
1:49pm Sun 30 Mar 08
Why don't you tell us about the poor treatment she received then, because, as you say yourself, there is not much mention of it in the newspaper article, it is mostly about Lisa not being there for the funeral. - we are not mind-readers.
truth seeker, says...
9:02am Mon 31 Mar 08
AJ wrote:no chance mate - another half baked "story".
Why don't you tell us about the poor treatment she received then, because, as you say yourself, there is not much mention of it in the newspaper article, it is mostly about Lisa not being there for the funeral. - we are not mind-readers.
anon, dartford says...
1:00pm Mon 31 Mar 08
I would like to add a little informed view on this matter. My babies heart stopped at 16.5 weeks, the only reason i found this out beore my 20 week scan was because the hospital admin staff at Darenth Valley got mixed up and sent me an appointment too early. I was told the only way to determin the sex of the baby and the cause of the death was to have an induced labour and the baby would be taken away for a post-mortem, on arrival to the hospital i was sent to the maternity ward to deliver my baby which was hard enough as i was sent to the wrong place but after 7 hours of labour and having my baby taken away, they lost my post mortem results and cancelled my appointment, i was not given the choice of a funeral as the baby was not 26 weeks yet and the remains were sent to eltham crematorium along with all other human body waste, i was told the baby was too small to ever be able to have the indiviual ashes. I just don't understand how this lady was offered a funeral at 13 weeks and how before she had a post mortem she knew the sex of the baby. The doctors and nurses at this hospital were wonderful but the admin is shockingly bad and the root of a lot of proplems, but i do feel that sueing the hospital can only take more valuable resources out of the hospital which (fingers
anita, dartford says...
11:44am Wed 26 Mar 08