Bromley Council anti-litter wardens collecting £1,000 in fines a day (From News Shopper)

Fair play. Leaving dog mess is just purely disgusting and should not be tollerated. Dropping litter is equally as intollerable.

I wish Greenwich Council would bring this in. They would rake in £1000s.
I constantly see dog mess on the streets.

So a Snidewatch scheme is a cash cow for Bromley Council, and for a firm who employ officious bullies. And they expect to be applauded?

Not before time, litter wardens should be national like parking wardens. It makes my blood boil seeing people drop litter, cigarette packet outer wrapping is a classic. Look for a bin or take it home!

goldenbroomboy wrote:
So a Snidewatch scheme is a cash cow for Bromley Council, and for a firm who employ officious bullies. And they expect to be applauded?

I really don't understand your problem with this! I think it's great that they're taking action to make the streets cleaner - it's not costing the council any money and it makes the borough a more pleasant place to live & work. You're not seriously suggesting that either people should be allowed to leave their litter & dog's mess all over the place are you?

MsChevious wrote:

goldenbroomboy wrote: So a Snidewatch scheme is a cash cow for Bromley Council, and for a firm who employ officious bullies. And they expect to be applauded?

I really don't understand your problem with this! I think it's great that they're taking action to make the streets cleaner - it's not costing the council any money and it makes the borough a more pleasant place to live & work. You're not seriously suggesting that either people should be allowed to leave their litter & dog's mess all over the place are you?

I remember the incident in Margate a couple of years ago when a kid running out of a shop knocked into a man causing him to drop his ice cream to the pavement. The man was instantly handed a Fixed Penalty Notice for littering, which Thanet Council refused to withdraw.

Well why didn't he appeal against the fine?

joertmclark wrote:
Well why didn't he appeal against the fine?

That is not relevant. The fact is that people are being authorised to hand out fines so their company can make money regardless of whether the same is correct in law or not. "Cavalier" is the most polite term to describe such an attitude, although I can think of others.

Yes, you're absolutely right GBB. Simply because there is one hearsay story about one incident in a different local authority then they should all be banned!

What's your solution? Get the Police to do it? Or do you not trust them either?

Ultimately there is an appeal process and a complaints procedure, so if they are misusing their power (I stress IF) then it should be dealt with through the correct channels; and if they are not upholding the law as they should then I'm sure there are lots more firms who would be happy of the contract.

MsChevious wrote:
Yes, you're absolutely right GBB. Simply because there is one hearsay story about one incident in a different local authority then they should all be banned!

What's your solution? Get the Police to do it? Or do you not trust them either?

Ultimately there is an appeal process and a complaints procedure, so if they are misusing their power (I stress IF) then it should be dealt with through the correct channels; and if they are not upholding the law as they should then I'm sure there are lots more firms who would be happy of the contract.

Are you implying that the Daily Wail prints hearsay stories?(!) Another case that I remember was of one of these uniformed bullies trying to pin one of their notices on a father whose five year old daughter had dropped a sweet wrapper.

These people are like debt collectors, they know nothing of the law, they are employed to make money & they are not too bothered how they make it. I am sure there are plenty of firms who would like this work since changes to the law mean that they cannot wheel clamp on private land any more.

goldenbroomboy wrote:

MsChevious wrote: Yes, you're absolutely right GBB. Simply because there is one hearsay story about one incident in a different local authority then they should all be banned! What's your solution? Get the Police to do it? Or do you not trust them either? Ultimately there is an appeal process and a complaints procedure, so if they are misusing their power (I stress IF) then it should be dealt with through the correct channels; and if they are not upholding the law as they should then I'm sure there are lots more firms who would be happy of the contract.

Are you implying that the Daily Wail prints hearsay stories?(!) Another case that I remember was of one of these uniformed bullies trying to pin one of their notices on a father whose five year old daughter had dropped a sweet wrapper. These people are like debt collectors, they know nothing of the law, they are employed to make money & they are not too bothered how they make it. I am sure there are plenty of firms who would like this work since changes to the law mean that they cannot wheel clamp on private land any more.

Bang on.

I remember reading about these and a few others. This is a slippery slop to start on. Watch out for when bins start getting removed. Also under what law would someone have to give them their details?

joertmclark wrote:
I wish Greenwich Council would bring this in. They would rake in £1000s.
I constantly see dog mess on the streets.

Royal Greenwich has staff that should enforce dog fouling and anti-littering legislation. The problem appears that they don't seem to get out and about to issue the fines and tackle the issues which blight the borough.

The Councillor responsible for enforcement issues in Greenwich is Maureen O'Mara.

At least Bromley are having some success, there is a lesson for Greenwich there.

goldenbroomboy wrote:

MsChevious wrote:

goldenbroomboy wrote: So a Snidewatch scheme is a cash cow for Bromley Council, and for a firm who employ officious bullies. And they expect to be applauded?

I really don't understand your problem with this! I think it's great that they're taking action to make the streets cleaner - it's not costing the council any money and it makes the borough a more pleasant place to live & work. You're not seriously suggesting that either people should be allowed to leave their litter & dog's mess all over the place are you?

I remember the incident in Margate a couple of years ago when a kid running out of a shop knocked into a man causing him to drop his ice cream to the pavement. The man was instantly handed a Fixed Penalty Notice for littering, which Thanet Council refused to withdraw.

If that's true then it's obviously bonkers, and clearly a misuse of the law! However, it's like saying lets not have a police force because there's stories about corrupt officers setting people up. The minute that a body or organisation is given power, there will always be a rouge element. Right at the top level, i.e. government, this has been witnessed with expenses scandal etc.

Personally I hate to see people just disrespectfully chucking an empty crisp packet on the floor, so they deserve to get fined.

Lets keep our country clean..... make sure you chuck marxists propaganda leaflets in the bin and not on the floor!

Virtual-Monster wrote:

joertmclark wrote:
I wish Greenwich Council would bring this in. They would rake in £1000s.
I constantly see dog mess on the streets.

Royal Greenwich has staff that should enforce dog fouling and anti-littering legislation. The problem appears that they don't seem to get out and about to issue the fines and tackle the issues which blight the borough.

The Councillor responsible for enforcement issues in Greenwich is Maureen O'Mara.

At least Bromley are having some success, there is a lesson for Greenwich there.

Do you think they will take notice? A persistent offender who does not clean up after his big dog lives on our street and I know that several people have complained about him to the council. All the council have done is paint no-pooing signs on the pavement around the block where he lives. They know who he is but all they can be bothered to do is paint silly signs that have no impact whatsoever.

j.j. wrote:

Virtual-Monster wrote:

joertmclark wrote:
I wish Greenwich Council would bring this in. They would rake in £1000s.
I constantly see dog mess on the streets.

Royal Greenwich has staff that should enforce dog fouling and anti-littering legislation. The problem appears that they don't seem to get out and about to issue the fines and tackle the issues which blight the borough.

The Councillor responsible for enforcement issues in Greenwich is Maureen O'Mara.

At least Bromley are having some success, there is a lesson for Greenwich there.

Do you think they will take notice? A persistent offender who does not clean up after his big dog lives on our street and I know that several people have complained about him to the council. All the council have done is paint no-pooing signs on the pavement around the block where he lives. They know who he is but all they can be bothered to do is paint silly signs that have no impact whatsoever.

Complain directly to Councillor Maureen O'Mara, I am sure that she will be delighted to hear from you.

You can contact her via the Councils main number 020 8854 8888 where you can also ask for email address so you can send your complaint direct to her.

The more time you spend complaining to these people the more chance they will actually do something.

PaulErith wrote:

goldenbroomboy wrote:

MsChevious wrote:

goldenbroomboy wrote: So a Snidewatch scheme is a cash cow for Bromley Council, and for a firm who employ officious bullies. And they expect to be applauded?

I really don't understand your problem with this! I think it's great that they're taking action to make the streets cleaner - it's not costing the council any money and it makes the borough a more pleasant place to live & work. You're not seriously suggesting that either people should be allowed to leave their litter & dog's mess all over the place are you?

I remember the incident in Margate a couple of years ago when a kid running out of a shop knocked into a man causing him to drop his ice cream to the pavement. The man was instantly handed a Fixed Penalty Notice for littering, which Thanet Council refused to withdraw.

If that's true then it's obviously bonkers, and clearly a misuse of the law! However, it's like saying lets not have a police force because there's stories about corrupt officers setting people up. The minute that a body or organisation is given power, there will always be a rouge element. Right at the top level, i.e. government, this has been witnessed with expenses scandal etc.

Personally I hate to see people just disrespectfully chucking an empty crisp packet on the floor, so they deserve to get fined.

There were a number of stupid fines highlighted a little while ago, I saw the one about the ice cream but the most stupid was the fine handed out to someone coming out of shop & dropped a £10 note. The "warden" refused to change his mind & the council said the criminal offence was absolute - he could appeal but he would probably lose and then get a criminal record in addition to a much larger fine

I remember that - it was somewhere in London, had come out of a shop & dropped the £10 - council said it was litter no matter what

So common sense no longer exists - if it had been me I would have gone to court & taken a change on them being sensible

I advise everyone to Google the legislation, this speaks volumes.

Section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

plasticfantastic wrote:
I advise everyone to Google the legislation, this speaks volumes.

Section 87 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990.

It's not just the EPA 1990 that’s relevant in this matter. Reference should also be made to the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 which strengthened and extended the 1990 Act and introduced further offences (especially around dogs).

You can also Google this legislation but it’s likely to be more effective for sleep disorders than 10 sleeping pills!

If you want to be a real nerd you could read DEFRA’s “Guidance on the use of fixed penalty notices” which is the bible for enforcement agencies about using Fixed Penalty Notices. Http://archive.defra
.gov.uk/environment/
quality/local/legisl
ation/cnea/documents
/fixed-penalty-guida
nce.pdf

Virtual-Monster wrote:

j.j. wrote:

Virtual-Monster wrote:

joertmclark wrote: I wish Greenwich Council would bring this in. They would rake in £1000s. I constantly see dog mess on the streets.

Royal Greenwich has staff that should enforce dog fouling and anti-littering legislation. The problem appears that they don't seem to get out and about to issue the fines and tackle the issues which blight the borough. The Councillor responsible for enforcement issues in Greenwich is Maureen O'Mara. At least Bromley are having some success, there is a lesson for Greenwich there.

Do you think they will take notice? A persistent offender who does not clean up after his big dog lives on our street and I know that several people have complained about him to the council. All the council have done is paint no-pooing signs on the pavement around the block where he lives. They know who he is but all they can be bothered to do is paint silly signs that have no impact whatsoever.

Complain directly to Councillor Maureen O'Mara, I am sure that she will be delighted to hear from you. You can contact her via the Councils main number 020 8854 8888 where you can also ask for email address so you can send your complaint direct to her. The more time you spend complaining to these people the more chance they will actually do something.

Thanks, that's a good diea.

The key part of the legislation, is the offender must "leave" the litter. If you pick it up, they have no power to fine you as you haven't left it. They use no discretion and fine everyone.

plasticfantastic wrote:
The key part of the legislation, is the offender must "leave" the litter. If you pick it up, they have no power to fine you as you haven't left it. They use no discretion and fine everyone.

Oh dear. "They use no discretion and fine everyone" and you can evidence this because you have witnessed every single event of littering in Bromley? Of course not.

Enforcement action is only undertaken once the perpetrator has failed to pick up the litter. An enforcement officer would use their experience to judge at what point to intervene and in most cases it is immediately obvious if the perpetrator intends to pick up their litter or not.

The simple answer is to be socially responsible by being careful not to drop litter and to clean up after your dog.

Remember; your rubbish, your dog, your responsibility.

Virtual-Monster wrote:

plasticfantastic wrote:
The key part of the legislation, is the offender must "leave" the litter. If you pick it up, they have no power to fine you as you haven't left it. They use no discretion and fine everyone.

Oh dear. "They use no discretion and fine everyone" and you can evidence this because you have witnessed every single event of littering in Bromley? Of course not.

Enforcement action is only undertaken once the perpetrator has failed to pick up the litter. An enforcement officer would use their experience to judge at what point to intervene and in most cases it is immediately obvious if the perpetrator intends to pick up their litter or not.

The simple answer is to be socially responsible by being careful not to drop litter and to clean up after your dog.

Remember; your rubbish, your dog, your responsibility.

You are right i what you say, but you are wrong saying that they only undertake the action if perpetrator picks it up. You are completely wrong!!! I have had a very long conversation with two of these officers in Bromley High Street. The council have taken away their discretion. They have targets, they issue tickets every time. It has mainly been for cigarette ends. Trust me, I'm talking from the horses mouth.