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Police urged to clean up act over graffiti
9:45am Tuesday 12th August 2008
Comments (107) Have your say »
A DISGRUNTLED councillor says graffiti is not being treated seriously enough by police, claiming officers do not consider it to be a crime.
Petts Wood and Knoll Councillor Simon Fawthrop says he will even take his case to the Commissioner of the Met Police, Sir Ian Blair, and Home Secretary Jacqui Smith if his complaints continue to fall on deaf ears.
But Bromley police borough commander Charles Griggs says graffiti is treated as a crime.
Cllr Fawthrop, who is a serving magistrate of 22 years, tried to report 39 items of graffiti in his ward, but says police did not consider them to be crimes.
The Tory also says the Government should make it an offence to be in possession of a spray can in public.
He said: "Police don't treat it seriously enough.
"I think you will find most people think it is a crime."
Cllr Fawthrop, who was a nominee for the Conservative candidacy at this year's London Mayor elections, says every time a piece of graffiti is cleaned up, it costs the taxpayer around £25.
The majority of graffiti he found was daubed on dustbins and telephone cable boxes.
Cllr Fawthrop, of Monarch Close, Coney Hall, West Wickham, said: "If police want to do something about the fear of crime, they need to take issues like graffiti seriously. "
Mr Griggs has already offered to meet Cllr Fawthrop to discuss the problem.
He said: "I have explained to Cllr Fawthrop the agreed protocols which exist between us and the council for reporting graffiti, and what is needed to record incidents as a crime.
"I am disappointed that, as a representative of the people of Petts Wood and Knoll Ward, he is unaware of the excellent partnership work which has been happening involving the council in tackling graffiti.
"Bromley police do not tolerate graffiti and criminal damage. We have a positive arrest policy for these offences.
"He should work with me, not against me."
Your Say YourNews Shopper
Charles Griggs, Bromley says...
10:02am Tue 12 Aug 08
The Safer Bromley Partnership has set it's priorities based on the concerns of Bromley Residents. Subsequently, graffiti is treated as a priority - in fact we are the only borough in London that has graffiti in it's Control Strategy for tackling crime. Every Safer Neighbourhood Team has set graffiti as a policing priority. Recently both the Council Portfolio Holders for Public Protection and Community Safety and for Environment have committed monies, along with the Safer Bromley Partnership, to set up Operation Monica. This initiative will provide a covert pro-active response to graffiti. Safer Neighbourhood Panels will be able to bid for this resource to help target graffiti in their local area. Perhaps Cllr Fawthrop may like to advise his Panel of this opportunity.
Bromley Police do not tolerate graffiti and criminal damage and we have a positive arrest policy for these offences. We have reported almost 1500 incidents and arrested over 360 people this year for criminal damage (excluding motor vehicle crime). I again invite Cllr Fawthrop to meet with me and discuss his concerns. My message to him is "Please work with us, not against us".
Charles Griggs
Bromley Borough Commander
Michael, Bickley says...
10:07am Tue 12 Aug 08
The Tory also says the Government should make it an offence to be in possession of a spray can in public.Make it illegal to carry a spray can in public??!!! Therell be a lot of very sweaty and smelly people around and Boots and all the other chemists will be bankrupt very quickly! Nutter!!!
Mark, Dartford says...
10:14am Tue 12 Aug 08
Councils are greedy and in league with many developers, that will turn our towns into concrete jungles.( More objects to put graffiti on).
Sue, West Wickham says...
10:14am Tue 12 Aug 08
Hang on arent the tories always bleating on about reducing police bureaucracy and freeing up more officers to patrol our streets? And now this bloke wants them to duplicate the councils work by investigating graffiti? Hardly a good use of public money or a police officers time with so much violent crime going on.
Red Ken, On the way back in 2012 says...
10:19am Tue 12 Aug 08
Ian, Gravesend says...
10:29am Tue 12 Aug 08
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
10:29am Tue 12 Aug 08
our councillors were elected to look after our interests and represent our views not use their elected office as some sort of political platform.
Excalibur, Bromley says...
10:35am Tue 12 Aug 08
Ian wrote:Too right - and he's apparently been a magistrate for 22 years, 22 years that have seen the steepest rise in crime ever! When you look at the sentencing for offences the courts are dishing out, its no wonder that the police and CPS have decided to leave graffiti to the local authorities. The sanctions being applied to yobbery and anti-social behaviour are pathetic and send out the message that there are no consequences to these actions. My point here? Councillor Simon Fawthrop, as a magistrate you reap what you sow!
So, Mr. Fawthrop, we have you, to thank, for giving out lenient sentences ( being a serving Magistrate)?We wonder why, we are in the state we are, when all you worry about is graffiti.
Emily, Beckenham says...
10:47am Tue 12 Aug 08
Bruce, Mottingham says...
11:18am Tue 12 Aug 08
s, woolwich says...
11:29am Tue 12 Aug 08
It looks like a big mess to me.
Marcus, Petts Wood says...
11:30am Tue 12 Aug 08
Kate, Sidcup says...
11:34am Tue 12 Aug 08
Colin, Bickley says...
11:48am Tue 12 Aug 08
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
12:25pm Tue 12 Aug 08
.........do what you do so well...........that is..........err.....
..well I'm sure you do something, although you don't even appear to be too well versed on council protocols or initiatives, given your lack of knowledge around the actions being taken around tackling graffiti!
v, Bromely says...
1:34pm Tue 12 Aug 08
What planet is this so called councillor been living on. It's common knowledge within the council that every Ward in Bromley has a dedicated Safer Neighbourhood team to Police it and is answerable to an elected panel of members known as a safer neighbourhood panel.
These members work with the Police and identify and advise the Police of their local crime issues.
If this councillor was worth any substance he would a) been a member of this or b) At least knew of its existence.
The Police Team in my area are extremely focused and pro active on this type of crime. We are fortunate that more more serious crime issues don't exist, but that doesn't mean we should dismiss this sort of offence as low priority.
In my opinion
Graffiti symbolises a broken Britain promotes a fear of crime and has a negative effect on communities.
Bromley is a very diverse borough to Police and peoples crime issues /concerns vary enormously.
The sort of people who carry out this anti social behaviour are more than likely commiting other anti social offences, and if not stopped they may move on to commit more serious crime.
I accept that in the scheme of things there are sometimes more important issues that the Police need to deal with.
They are working hard with members of the public, council and other agencies to deal with local crime issues and I for one am very grateful for the work they do.
If this councillor is concerned about this issue contact your local team find out when your next meeting is and go and voice your views.Not blab to the press.
M, St Pauls Cray says...
1:38pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Keep up the good work Mr Griggs and the Safer Neighbourhood teams working in the Crays!
Wattsie, The Office says...
1:47pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Jon, Orpington says...
1:47pm Tue 12 Aug 08
simon Fawthrop, Bromley says...
2:03pm Tue 12 Aug 08
I think it is important to correct a few errors that appear to have go into this debate.
First to Marcus who lives in Petts Wood. I'm glad that you think that Petts Wood is relatively free of graffiti, that shows that the work I do on your behalf is paying off. You may not be aware but I regularly go around the ward and report items of graffiti and disrepair I find to the Council for cleaning. Sometimes I have spotted as many as 75 items. This is one reason that Petts Wood & knoll remain relatively graffiti free. (By the way Petts Wood both Queensway and Station Square sides already have CCTV so this is not intended to get CCTV).
I did enjoy the little joke from Michael in Bickley about Spray Cans. Just to clarify I was hoping that it would refer to Spray paint and that the wording would include, without reasonable cause.
Now to Commander Griggs.
I'm grateful that he has taken time to enter a message here. Though I do find it strange that he has never replied in person to one of my emails. Clearly the only way to get his attention appears to have a dialogue through the press.
Having said that I should ask Mr Griggs of the criminal damage figures he quotes how many people have been charged for graffiti related offences? o the 1500 reported offences how many were for graffiti? Why is it that over the period from 1st April this year The Council will have received 9000 graffiti reports, but Mr Griggs only has 1500?
Furthermore I would not wish to waste police time by having them investigate every single item of graffiti I report, however just like when I had a car stolen, I would expect the police to take it seriously and record that the offence had taken place.
To put thinks in perspective It cost Bromley Council £300,000+ per year to clean 21,500 incidents of graffiti. The tax payer therefore will ultimately pick up that bill. If £300,000.00 of crimninal damage is reported to the police, you would expect it to be taken seriously.
What appears to be happening is that the Police are more interested in their government targets and statistics than making residents feel safe.
Residents quite often do not feel safe because they see the criminal damage of graffiti go un punished.
Finally to clarify the role of a magistrate. Magistrates sit in a bench of 3 people and judge each case on it's merits. We are required by law to work within the guidelines set by the Government. To my knowledge all magistrates that I have sat with have upheld these principles. However I will say that in my 22 years as a magistrate, not once have had someone brought before the bench charged with criminal damage by way of graffiti. Which is why I wonder if ommander Griggs will provide the facts on graffiti criminal damage.
William, Petts Wood says...
2:11pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
2:19pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Julian Hurst, Bromley Police Press Officer says...
2:29pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Though I do find it strange that he has never replied in person to one of my emails.This is totally untrue, Councillor Fawthrop. I personally emailed you the Borough Commander's response to your email at 1505hrs on 25 July. This response was signed by the Borough Commander and contained the Borough Commander's views on the matter. This email also included a copy of the investigation that he had asked the Detective Chief Inspector to undertake. You replied to this email at 1941hrs on 27 July, starting your email "Dear Commander Griggs, Thank you for your note.....".
simon Fawthrop, Bromley says...
2:34pm Tue 12 Aug 08
I want people to have confidence in the crime figures, whichever way they move. However public perception is made up of what they are told (crime fgures going down) and what they see many incidents of graffiti. Unfortunately as the two examples don't coincide people are rightly confused and sceptical of the figures.
Safety is as much about perception as facts, I want people to feel safe. Residents should also feel that it is not a problem for them to report what might appear to be minor crime, they should not be seen as wasting police time, but as helping the wider community.
There is nothing silly in that. If people do not report the problems, those in authority, who may not be as pro-active as myself, may well presume everything is fine.
Bernie, Farnborough says...
2:35pm Tue 12 Aug 08
I think that we should be told?!!!
Geoffrey, Petts Wood says...
2:46pm Tue 12 Aug 08
simon Fawthrop, Bromley says...
2:51pm Tue 12 Aug 08
As a police office you must know that second-hand or hearsay does not count.
But I'm less interested in the semantics and more interested in how these incidents are recorded to reflect the crime that is taking place under our noses.
knowlsey, sidcup says...
3:10pm Tue 12 Aug 08
James Douglas, Bromley says...
4:15pm Tue 12 Aug 08
simon Fawthrop wrote:But I'm less interested in the semantics... Oops, looks like our erstwhile councillor's been caught out telling a few porkies to embelish his story! Complaining like this over something that is so trivial is one of the few opportunities that some people have of feeling important and empowered. Thus, for instance, taking on a large, significant and high profile organisation gives a buzz to a lot of people who dont have much else about which to feel pleased with themselves as well, of course, as getting their names in the paper. This is another one of Simon Fawthrops I wanna be in the news moments after all, he was the man who engaged in a clumsy bit of electioneering by making an application to build in Ken Livingstones back garden and then wondered why the Tories ran a mile when he put himself forward as their candidate for Mayor of London!!! His judgement is pretty suspect too - I recall that he was a strong supporter of Iain Duncan-Smith and came out with the stunning line I'd say Iain Duncan Smith was up to the job. One can only feel sorry for the hard done by residents of Petts Wood!
Julian As a police office you must know that second-hand or hearsay does not count. But I'm less interested in the semantics and more interested in how these incidents are recorded to reflect the crime that is taking place under our noses.
Marie, St Mary Cray says...
4:23pm Tue 12 Aug 08
..after campaigning against even having a mayor a few years before "We will have higher council tax, more bureaucracy, less effective local government. London doesn't need a political beauty contest every four years???? Not exactly what youd call a principled man who stands by his views! And he certainly changed his mind about higher council tax, more bureaucracy, less effective local government weve had most of that here in Bromley, and he wants to make things even more bureaucratic for the police by having them spend hours recording his self created crimes? When are the next local elections? Not soon enough if you ask me........
Patrick, Sidcup says...
4:30pm Tue 12 Aug 08
SOME of these men have worked with vulnerable youngsters teaching them how to use art to express themselves, one of them was hired to decorate the set of Britain's best loved soap and next Saturday pictures of their work will be displayed in a unique art exhibition in New York.
But these five men are currently in prison, serving between 15 months and two years each after pleading guilty to one of the biggest prosecutions for criminal damage the UK has ever seen.
So are the DPM crew petty criminals or art's next big thing?
Eight young men were sentenced last Friday after they all admitted a charge of conspiracy to cause criminal damage that is estimated to have cost up to £1million.
Called the DPM crew, they all admitted conspiracy to graffiti trains and rolling stock that caused hundreds and thousands of pounds worth of damage to South Eastern Trains alone between 2004 and 2006.
British Transport Police, who led the inquiry said DPM were responsible for tagging and spray painting trains in Dartford, Grove Park and Orpington as well as Croydon trams, Wandsworth Town tube and stations in Liverpool, Manchester and other parts of Europe.
Detective Sergeant Michael Field, who led the inquiry described it as a "major crime on a vast scale".
He said: "Graffiti is an attack on the community and the environment. It is anti-social and destructive and it's a crime we take very seriously."
Indeed, the courts took it just as seriously, jailing five members Andrew Gillman, Slav Zinoviev, Ziggy Grudzinskas, Paul Stewart and Matthew Pease to a total of eight years with the remaining three receiving 12 month suspended sentences.
Sentencing at Southwark Crown Court, Judge Christopher Hardy said he had to acknowledge that some of the graffiti written by DPM showed "considerable talent".
It is that considerable talent is to be shown off in an exhibition organised by Hip Hop promoters End of the Weak and artist Elura Emerald this Saturday at the Anonymous Gallery Project Space in Broome Street, New York.
Ms Emerald said: "The exhibition in NYC is to give the recognition to the artists that I believe they deserve and to accentuate the fact that they are not at all criminals and do not at all deserve to be put in jail for their creative force.
"I do not believe the creators of art should be punished, but appreciated and celebrated."
On the day that the court opened its case against DPM, London's Tate Modern was opening its Street Art exhibition celebrating artists who made their names by 'decorating' buildings in much the same kind of illegal activity.
Hundreds of thousands of visitors have already filed past the installations, admiring work by Blu, an Italian graffiti artist who uses buildings as "sheets of paper", JR who illegally painted his initials around the streets of Paris and Brazilian Nunca who started tagging at the age of 12.
One member of the Tate's audience was 25-year-old Greenwich art student and member of DPM, Ziggy Grudzinskas who was sentenced to 18 months in prison.
"I stood there completely baffled for about an hour outside of the Tate," he said before the sentencing.
"I quite like it but it really confused me a lot. I know that half, if not all of the graffiti that is on the Tate Modern building is done by people who do illegal graffiti or have done illegal graffiti and have made their name doing that.
"It is like they're saying 'yeah we're on the edge of the law yet we're being shown by one of the biggest galleries in London.' And it's sponsored by Nissan!"
According to Andrew Gillman, the 25-year-old so-called 'main mover' of DPM who was jailed for two years, the exhibition just highlights the mixed messages surrounding graffiti.
He said: "If you can make money from illegal graff or a gallery does it off your back, then it's okay. It's in advertising and fashion as well. There is graffiti on trainers, hoodies, hats, t-shirts, everything you can think of. People want to wear illegal graffiti that is on the trains and the street.
"How come you can wear it and buy it, use it in advertising, marketing, music and every album cover and as soon as you do it you're f***ed, so where's the message? If they don't want people to be involved, don't popularise it."
End of the Weak's Padraic Mccroudi, who last summer hosted an event in association with the Tate Modern called the Art of Freestyle, said: "Jailing artists for criminal damage, although it may seem to be a deterrent, does in fact only serve to gain kudos and notoriety for the artist.
"This in turn means that the criminal justice system in this case is fundamentally flawed and counter productive."
Even London councils Greenwich and Tower Hamlets called the work by Grudzinskas, and fellow DPM member Jack Binnie, 26, who got a suspended sentence, as "inspirational" and "positive" in character references they gave to the court.
They were popular Street Art tutors and led workshops in youth clubs teaching young and vulnerable children "positive messages about life choices" and helping to construct striking murals in Charlton Village, Woolwich and Tower Hamlets.
A source at Greenwich council said: "They showed the young people who aren't able to do reading or writing that they can use artistic ways to express themselves.
"Their skills are obviously needed, it doesn't make sense to send them down, we should use them."
Matthew Pease, 24, and Paul Stewart, 26, also of DPM who were sentenced to 15 months and 18 months respectively, took part in a five-day workshop in the Czech Republic to work with disadvantaged youths as part of an event organised by music and art organisation Community Music (CM).
But it was Gillman in particular who made the headlines when he was hired by the BBC to tag the set of EastEnders while he was on bail.
He said: "They knew I was a writer. I said to them, the tags I am putting up, are the tags I see in London so it's realistic. And they said 'great, realistic tags, just what we want.'
"And they said 'maybe you could come up with three tags for EastEnders, you know, three writers that are just around the square, you could put up East 13 crew, one could be Rocky!' They were getting really into it."
But now DPM have vowed never to pick up a spray can again since their conviction but their friendship will clearly remain.
"It was more about friendship than graffiti," Gillman said. "We knew what we were doing was wrong but when you are painting a piece, all your worries just fall away.
"Trains were like moving canvasses, they go underground, over bridges. And if you're standing there amongst the crowd and you see everyone looking at it, it gives you a huge feeling of gratification.
"We tried to create something that was artistic, made people look, something that's thought provoking, makes commuters look up from their paper."
DPM's "brains of the group", Masters graduate Slav Zinoviev, 25, who was sentenced to 18 months in prison, said: "Now that Banksy has come around, people see it as one of the purest art forms, which it essentially is. And so to that extent I would say that I was an artist.
"To train writers, tags are actually much more valuable to the graffiti community than a Banksy painting is.
"We were all brought together by some sort of passion and this is one of the things that has created stronger bonds between us, and perhaps given us richer memories than the average person possesses."
Gillman of St John's Hill, Battersea, was jailed for two years; Zinoviev, of the same address, Grudzinskas of Ulundi Road, Greenwich and Stewart of Manor Lane, Lewisham received 18 months in jail; Pease also of Manor Lane, Lewisham was jailed for 15 months
As they were led to the cells, members of a packed public gallery shouted: "We love you boys, stay strong!" and applauded them until they were out of sight.
Binnie of Adelaide Avenue, Ladywell and Matthew Tanti, 23, of Holmsbury Court, Upper Tooting Road were each sentenced to 12 months suspended for 12 months.
Alex McClelland, 24, of Croxted Road, West Dulwich was sentenced to nine months suspended for 12 months.
Outside court, Ziggy's father Professor Gedis Grudzinskas said: "Ziggy has been sent to prison for 18 months having pleaded guilty to a crime not involving violence, terrorism, knives or drugs but vandalising public property.
"British Transport Police declined to arrest him and others when they knew they were breaking the law, presumably to develop their case for this show trial costing the taxpayer thousands and thousands of pounds unnecessarily.
"Now they have sent him to jail instead of getting him to do community service for example to clean and help restore the trains and stations.
"This is not justice in modern Britain is it?
Colin Bloom (Cllr), Bickley says...
5:57pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
6:15pm Tue 12 Aug 08
It is true though that those who shout the most often have the least the say...
Ohhh, a stunning knockout by Bloom. Fawthrop well and truly laid out for the ten count by that one! A real beauty!!!
Alfie, Orpington says...
6:21pm Tue 12 Aug 08
simon Fawthrop wrote:Good Lord, Fawthrop, if you were strapped up to a CIA lie detector your gonads would be crisp little peanuts for that attempt at rewriting history. You've been well caught out mate.
Julian As a police office you must know that second-hand or hearsay does not count. But I'm less interested in the semantics........
Matt, Bickley says...
6:49pm Tue 12 Aug 08
WilliamUtter Rubbish, Mr Fawthrop. The public are not so gullible as to believe everything that they are told, especially after 11 years of a Labour government spinning continuously and attempting to manpulate the statistics to suit their requirements (a word of warning, Mr Fawthrop, we've caught on to this spin lark a while a go, so it's a poor time to be attempting it. The Conservatives are better than this, even if you're not). Fear of crime serves the interest of a law and order agenda. It is irrelevant at one level whether crime is really increasing or not - if crime is perceived to be out of control, then there is pressure to do something about it. Protestations that crime is stable or decreasing have little effect because the tendency of the media is to highlight dramatic and violent crime. Politicians like you are quite willing to climb onto the law and order bandwagon and pledge to be "doing something about it" merely as a political manoevre. Crime is falling, even if you can't admit it for party political purposes.
I want people to have confidence in the crime figures, whichever way they move. However public perception is made up of what they are told
The person like you, who is given to moral panic, sees the whole of society through the lens of an isolated or inconsequential event, believing it to be typical and representative, when in fact it is rare and no more frequent than it has ever been. Petts Wood is a lovely community - try promoting it positively for a change.
v, bromley says...
7:07pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Colin Bloom (Cllr) wrote:Not exactly earth shattering input here Cllr Bloom!!!
My my my, there is so much here to agree with. However, contrary to the rumours circulating amongst some of Bromley\'s more colourful and fragrant Members,I am not the same Colin from Bickley that posted at 11.48 this morning - However if would like to contact me at the Council I would be delighted to meet him. Also contrary to some of the posts here, in my opinion most Bromley Council Members (of all parties) are hard working and passionate about making the Borough of Bromley a better place. It is true though that those who shout the most often have the least the say...
Borat, Traveling the world says...
7:42pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
7:45pm Tue 12 Aug 08
v wrote:On the contrary, V, he's been very perceptive..........
Colin Bloom (Cllr) wrote: My my my, there is so much here to agree with. However, contrary to the rumours circulating amongst some of Bromley\'s more colourful and fragrant Members,I am not the same Colin from Bickley that posted at 11.48 this morning - However if would like to contact me at the Council I would be delighted to meet him. Also contrary to some of the posts here, in my opinion most Bromley Council Members (of all parties) are hard working and passionate about making the Borough of Bromley a better place. It is true though that those who shout the most often have the least the say...Not exactly earth shattering input here Cllr Bloom!!!
..is V short for vested interest, by the way?
Myron, Bromley says...
8:41pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Derek, Penge says...
10:07pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Borat wrote:We call them 'a typical politician' in this country - same meaning though.
In my country we refer to Mr Fawthrop as an 'Anouuus'.
Excalibur, Bromley says...
11:26pm Tue 12 Aug 08
Safety is as much about perception as facts, I want people to feel safe.
Simon Fawthrop is wrong, and incorrectly using a typical populist sound-bite, when he invokes the Fear of Crime in a futile attempt to shore up his ever weakening argument. The fear of crime is an abstract idea, an evocative and polysemic notion, frequently used yet rather difficult to precisely define. It is a concept of everyday language, used in conversation and public debate to condense a number of inter-related social and political concerns.
Lurid and misleading mass media reports provoke misguided pictures of the crime problem in the general populace making some people feel needlessly vulnerable. Their quality of life suffers because they see crime where there is little. Politicians like Mr Fawthrop do not help allay these fears, only increase them.
Fear of crime research has proven to be a crucial cog in the wheel of the fear of crime business, which includes sensational mass media coverage and high-profile popular punitive political rhetoric from successive governments and oppositions. This business encourages the sense among the public that crime is a bigger problem than it is really is (particularly serious and dramatic types of crimes) and that many people are worried about crime, thus increasing the tendency for people to use the dramatic metaphor of crime to make sense of diversity, disorder and community conditions.
The fear of crime is a phenomenon highly susceptible to methodological manipulation by politicians - the law and and order lobby and populist politicians use this supposed fearing population to justify a tougher approach on even the most minor crime, a point on which they grandstand, and in doing so sensitise citizens to fear once again. This is exactly what the Councillor is doing in this case.
I believe that this whole incident that Councillor Fawthrop has perpetuated is merely a 21st Century equivalent to what Charles MacKay called a cruel and absurd delusion in his book Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, discussing the witch manias which gripped Europe
between the 12th and 15th Centuries. If you dont believe me, read on
An epidemic terror seized upon the nations; no man thought himself secure, either in his person or possessions, from the machinations of the devil and his agents. Every calamity that befel him he attributed to a witch. If a storm arose and blew down his barn, it was witchcraft; if his cattle died of a murrain if disease fastened upon his limbs, or death suddenly entered and snatched a beloved face from his hearth they were not visitations of Providence, but the works of some neighbouring hag, whose wretchedness or insanity caused the ignorant to raise their finger and point at her as a witch. The word was upon everybodys tongue. France, Italy, Germany, England, Scotland, and the far north successively ran mad upon this subject, and for a long series of years furnished their tribunals with so
many trials for witchcraft, that other crimes were seldom or never spoken of. Thousands upon thousands of unhappy persons fell victims to this cruel and absurd delusion.
Jamie, Northfleet says...
12:23am Wed 13 Aug 08
cassie, bromley says...
1:26am Wed 13 Aug 08
out of interest, could
bromley borough commander griggs or councillor fawthrop explain what is needed to record incidents as a crime?
Julian Hurst, Bromley Police Press Officer says...
7:10am Wed 13 Aug 08
In response:
The detail included within the list provided to us by Councillor Fawthrop was not sufficient to report any crimes. The reason for this is that we are required to follow the Home Office Counting Rules (HOCR) in relation to recording crime. They are a national standard and all Police Forces are required to follow them.
In relation to allegations of criminal damage the HOCR are quite clear, they state; If the damage is easily rectified and non-permanent, i.e. it can be cleaned off or removed at no cost and with little effort, then we do not record a crime. This is why the detail around the damage is important.
Further to that, we didn't know if any of these matters had been previously reported. We could have obviously requested a search to look for all of these 'possible' crimes. This however would be time consuming and I would have to ask is it a sensible use of resources?
I would also have to ask if the owners of the property want the matters reported to Police - we have the option of sending Police Officers around to try and contact all these owners, however again is this a sensible use of Police resources, especially if the damage was very minor and easily removed? This could seriously affect public confidence in the MPS if we were seen to be doing this.
The HOCR have other rules in relation to damage that talk about when the crimes occurred, i.e. was it a continuing act of damage against a number of objects owned by the same person etc? The information we were given by Councillor Fawthrop was simply insufficient for us to record offences correctly.
Some of the property mentioned also appeared to belong to the British Transport Police and again may have been previously reported and dealt with.
I hope this explains your query adequately.
Mark, Bromley says...
8:55am Wed 13 Aug 08
By the way - I travel through and visit Petts Wood regularly - it doesn't strike me as a graffiti ridden ghetto. Still, I'm no politician........
Cliff, Penge says...
9:32am Wed 13 Aug 08
Squeaky Clean, Petts Wood says...
10:17am Wed 13 Aug 08
Edwina, Petts Wood says...
10:42am Wed 13 Aug 08
Ron, Beckenham says...
12:47pm Wed 13 Aug 08
Graffiti removal
We are working seven days a week to remove graffiti and fly-posting from your streets. Please report graffiti to us, and we will send out our crews to remove it.
Join the 21st century, surf the net and the answer to all your problems are there, Councillor. Simple.
Actually hang on a minute, the last time Conservative councillors and the internet met, I seem to recall an embarrasing Facebook incident - and I certainly don't fancy giving Councillor Fawthrop any 'virtual pokes'
Ronald, Penge says...
3:42pm Wed 13 Aug 08
Marcus, Beckenham says...
6:18pm Wed 13 Aug 08
Bromley Police do not tolerate graffiti and criminal damage and we have a positive arrest policy for these offences. We have reported almost 1500 incidents and arrested over 360 people this year for criminal damage (excluding motor vehicle crime). I again invite Cllr Fawthrop to meet with me and discuss his concerns. My message to him is "Please work with us, not against us".I like your style sir, no messing about with the scum who cause criminal damage and taking no nonsense from these politicians. I don't know your politics, but whatever they are I would willingly support you as the London Mayoral Candidate in 2012. Griggs for Mayor 2012!
Charles Griggs
Bromley Borough Commander
Neil, West Wickham says...
6:25pm Wed 13 Aug 08
Colin Bloom (Cllr) wrote:I like this guys, too. Bloomin' marvellous put down of Fawthrop with the last sentence (excuse the pun). How about Colin Bloom for Deputy Mayor in 2012.......what a dream ticket!
My my my, there is so much here to agree with. However, contrary to the rumours circulating amongst some of Bromley's more colourful and fragrant Members,I am not the same Colin from Bickley that posted at 11.48 this morning - However if would like to contact me at the Council I would be delighted to meet him. Also contrary to some of the posts here, in my opinion most Bromley Council Members (of all parties) are hard working and passionate about making the Borough of Bromley a better place. It is true though that those who shout the most often have the least the say...
Jon, Orpington says...
6:32pm Wed 13 Aug 08
knowlsey wrote:And how about 'knowlsey' for running their Ethics Committee? City Hall wouldn't know what's hit them!!!
I never trust anything a councilller says they lie to our faces to get votes and then lap up the freebies.Show me your expenses and then talk to me.
Reg, Bromley says...
7:28pm Wed 13 Aug 08
sisyphus, Bromley says...
12:16am Thu 14 Aug 08
Neil wrote:My dream ticket too!
Colin Bloom (Cllr) wrote: My my my, there is so much here to agree with. However, contrary to the rumours circulating amongst some of Bromley's more colourful and fragrant Members,I am not the same Colin from Bickley that posted at 11.48 this morning - However if would like to contact me at the Council I would be delighted to meet him. Also contrary to some of the posts here, in my opinion most Bromley Council Members (of all parties) are hard working and passionate about making the Borough of Bromley a better place. It is true though that those who shout the most often have the least the say...I like this guys, too. Bloomin' marvellous put down of Fawthrop with the last sentence (excuse the pun). How about Colin Bloom for Deputy Mayor in 2012.......what a dream ticket!
Margaret, Dulwich says...
8:43am Thu 14 Aug 08
cassie, bromley says...
1:31am Fri 15 Aug 08
thank you for your reply, although i was asking for only the specifics as regards what is needed to record incidents as a crime
i'm still not clear on that as you say there are rules other than costs which determine same
graffiti must certainly usually quality as a crime on costs grounds - the council spends a considerable amount of taxpayers' money cleaning it up - and i will try and find out the hocr myself, all the rules need to be known before we can look to establish whether the council, and other bodies, are correctly reporting incidents of graffiti to the police
Ricksrants, says...
10:55am Fri 15 Aug 08
As long as you represent PWood and Knowle I will vote UKIP
cassie, bromley says...
9:24pm Fri 15 Aug 08
well it's all very confusing, skimmed through one relevant document, the hocr 'general rules' - didn't find graffiti specifically but within 'a - whether and when to record' and also in 'annex a - national reporting standard - 3.10' it says this, which seems to be the most relevant -
"Apparent or possible criminal activity, such as damage to bus shelters, telephone kiosks, forensic
items (blood) etc, which does not in itself amount to evidence of a crime, coming to the attention of
the police after the incident either personally or via third parties, would not initially be recorded as a crime but as a crime related incident and enquiries should be carried out to locate the victim."
so, from a quick skim through only one relevant document it would on the face of it appear that under hocr councillor fawthrop was entitled as a 'third party' to report the graffiti/criminal damage, and under hocr the police should have recorded same as 'crime related incidents' and made enquiries to locate the victims...
if the information councillor fawthrop gave was detailed enough - unfortunately, although the reply from the bromley police press office says it wasn't, what actually is required hasn't yet been explained
www.homeoffice.gov.u
k/rds/pdfs08/countge
neral08.pdf
Sisyphus, Bromley says...
11:18pm Fri 15 Aug 08
Peter, Orpington says...
11:19pm Fri 15 Aug 08
cassie wrote:I suspect it has been to councillor fawthrop, but he has an agenda so wouldn't let the facts get in the way of a publicity opportunity. If you read the blogs, it's obvious that fawthrop's been caught out being very economical with the truth. He has labels on himself.
hocr well it's all very confusing, skimmed through one relevant document, the hocr 'general rules' - didn't find graffiti specifically but within 'a - whether and when to record' and also in 'annex a - national reporting standard - 3.10' it says this, which seems to be the most relevant - "Apparent or possible criminal activity, such as damage to bus shelters, telephone kiosks, forensic items (blood) etc, which does not in itself amount to evidence of a crime, coming to the attention of the police after the incident either personally or via third parties, would not initially be recorded as a crime but as a crime related incident and enquiries should be carried out to locate the victim." so, from a quick skim through only one relevant document it would on the face of it appear that under hocr councillor fawthrop was entitled as a 'third party' to report the graffiti/criminal damage, and under hocr the police should have recorded same as 'crime related incidents' and made enquiries to locate the victims... if the information councillor fawthrop gave was detailed enough - unfortunately, although the reply from the bromley police press office says it wasn't, what actually is required hasn't yet been explained www.homeoffice.gov.u k/rds/pdfs08/countge neral08.pdf
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
11:36am Sat 16 Aug 08
Sisyphus wrote:Totally agree, Sisyphus. The lunatics really have taken over the asylum if Fawthrop (and his strangely quiet cohorts at he civic centre) believe that the public wouldn't be able to see through his politically motivated attempt at manipulating the crime statistics and getting some publicity to boot. You think he'd have learned after the ridicule that he brought raining down on himself when he proposed himself as a candidate for Mayor of London - I still weep with laughter at the thought!
Oh joy, Fawthrop seems to have gone rather quiet. I think it may be a while before he pulls another media stunt like this one. Talk about backfiring. Ha ha haaaaaa ha ha haha ha ha ha ha ha haaa ha ha ha haaa...
Brian, Bromley says...
12:41pm Sat 16 Aug 08
Perhaps if Councillor Fawthrop actually lived in the ward he represents and didn't just visit it when he's after some exposure in thge media, he might be more aware of the concerns of those he represents. I hope the residents of Petts Wood will be more discerning in the way they vote at the next election.
Marc, Orpington says...
3:07pm Sat 16 Aug 08
Nigel, Orpington says...
6:05pm Sat 16 Aug 08
Ricksrants wrote:I totally agree. As long as the Tories persist with these characters they'll always have a problem. This isn't the first time in recent memory that one of the local Tories has had a 'brain-fade' moment - who can forget the ridiculous Councillor Nicholas Bennett's outburst a few years ago when he wanted anyone not wearing a top on a warm summer's day arrested. Then he had the cheek a few months later to be bleating about the fact that the police were being hindered from doing their job due to bureaucracy!!! These two-faced politicians sum up all that is wrong with this country and are one of the reasons why no-one trusts a word politicians say.
Fawthrope you are an idiot. This stupid show of self importance demeans the Tories. As long as you represent PWood and Knowle I will vote UKIP
cassie, bromley says...
2:42am Sun 17 Aug 08
perhaps but if it was explained to him in the same way it was explained to us then it wouldn't be surprising if he still didn't know :)
Chris, Bickley says...
4:11pm Sun 17 Aug 08
cassie wrote:I'm sure that he understood perfectly well. As is so often with Fawthrop, the hype gallops ahead of the reality - this vacuous receptable has some Mugabe-like delusion that he could take us all for fools in a vain attempt to assuage his political ego. The Tories know what he's like, know his history for self-publicity and ought to have had an intimation of the coming disaster that is Fawthrop when they were considering him as a candidate for the area.
i suspect it has been to councillor fawthrop perhaps but if it was explained to him in the same way it was explained to us then it wouldn't be surprising if he still didn't know :)
Sisyphus, Bromley says...
6:05pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Billy, Penge says...
7:53pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Jim, Woolwich says...
9:41pm Sun 17 Aug 08
s wrote:What estate do you live on? i live in woolwich and on a estate and you can walk all round and wont see any graffiti. And if you do you tell the caretakers and its cleaned off. And as for getting paid for doing it? what a load of tosh
greenwich council pays people to graffiti the walls on our estate but it is classed as art. It looks like a big mess to me.
Jim, Woolwich says...
9:45pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Sisyphus wrote:Sisyphus can you prove he lied? if you can then post it on here so we can all see or are you just like others, a big man when it comes to making comments here but very little man in the real world?
So, Fawthrop, where are you? You must be reading these comments - at least some of them from people who voted for you, I imagine. What have you got to say to them? You've clearly bent the truth - actually, as we're not in parliament, I can say you've lied. Are you going to apologise?
Sisyphus, Bromley says...
10:17pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Fawthrop wrote: Now to Commander Griggs.
I'm grateful that he has taken time to enter a message here. Though I do find it strange that he has never replied in person to one of my emails.
Bromley police wrote: This is totally untrue, Councillor Fawthrop. I personally emailed you the Borough Commander's response to your email at 1505hrs on 25 July. This response was signed by the Borough Commander and contained the Borough Commander's views on the matter. This email also included a copy of the investigation that he had asked the Detective Chief Inspector to undertake. You replied to this email at 1941hrs on 27 July, starting your email "Dear Commander Griggs, Thank you for your note.....".
Do you have any other questions, Jim?
Mike, Anerley says...
10:46pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Darren, Orpington says...
11:05pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Steve, Woolwich says...
11:10pm Sun 17 Aug 08
Excalibur, Bromley says...
11:32pm Sun 17 Aug 08
cassie wrote:Are you really serious? Councillor Fawthrop is a local Councillor and as such it is not unreasonable to expect him to be fully knowledgeable about the partnership working that goes on between the police and a local authority, along with the associated protocols. These people aren't elected just for fun - they're another level of government and come at a huge cost to the tax payer.
i suspect it has been to councillor fawthrop perhaps but if it was explained to him in the same way it was explained to us then it wouldn't be surprising if he still didn't know :)
Additionally, looking at what the Police Commander has said, it is perfectly clear that Councillor Fawthrop does fully understand these requirements. Looking at some of your other posts, it is obvious that you perhaps have a left-wing / anti-police agenda, but this is one occasion that even you cannot fail to see that this incident is anything other than a self-serving publicity attempt by Councillor Fawthrop.
I can highly recommend a book for you to read, entitled "The rise of political lying" - don't worry, it's not Councillor Fawthrop's autobiography, but it does give a marvellous insight into the type of politician that he is.
cassie, bromley says...
2:01am Tue 19 Aug 08
borough commander griggs said in his reply that councillor fawthrop had
'asked police to record 39 separate incidents of alleged graffiti...as a crime' and that he had told councillor fawthrop 'what is needed to record these incidents as a crime' etc
i'm just interested - both just out of interest and because it seems to be the crux of the issue - to know what is needed and whether councillor fawthrop, and therefore anyone, is entitled to report graffiti to the police as a crime (recorded by the police as a crime)
also, it is interesting that in the police replies different reasons are given as to why they wouldn't take the reports, and within the reply to me from the police press office (7:10am Wed 13 Aug 08) it said (as one of the reasons they didn't report the incidents)-
"...we didn't know if any of these matters had been previously reported."
so the police do, report and record incidents of graffiti (so, why not similarly take reports from councillor fawthrop?)...
the reply continues... "We could have obviously requested a search to look for all of these 'possible' crimes. This however would be time consuming and I would have to ask is it a sensible use of resources?"
however, this would equally have applied to any previous reports...they might have been reported before etc etc
and one of the reasons given was that "The information we were given by Councillor Fawthrop was simply insufficient for us to record offences correctly" so why have the police said re might have been previously reported, too time-consuming etc?
Colin, Bickley says...
6:57am Tue 19 Aug 08
I think you're deliberately missing the point, Cassie dear - Councillor Fawthrop was engaged in a self-serving publicity attempt, something that is perfectly clear to anyone with a slight grain of common sense and no hidden agenda. Councillor Fawthrop is a local Councillor and as such it is not unreasonable to expect him to be fully knowledgeable about the partnership working that goes on between the police and a local authority. Looking at what the above, it is perfectly clear that Councillor Fawthrop does fully understand these requirements and they have been fully explained to him. As a typical politician, he's merely twisting the truth for his own agenda. Period.
Jane, Petts Wood says...
8:50am Tue 19 Aug 08
Simon, Bromley says...
10:00am Tue 19 Aug 08
Les, Bromley says...
10:23am Tue 19 Aug 08
Roger, Bromley says...
10:48am Tue 19 Aug 08
Sarah, Petts Wood says...
11:47am Tue 19 Aug 08
Christopher, Bickley says...
12:15pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Sammy, Bromley says...
1:17pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Richard, Orpington says...
1:42pm Tue 19 Aug 08
The line But I'm less interested in the semantics... was an horrendous attempt at tyring to bluster your way out of trouble. We expect honesty from our Magistrates - what will the people standing opposite you in the dock think in future? People would have had more respect for you if you had held your hands up and admitted that you were wrong, rather than digging an even bigger hole for yourself.
Terry, Bromley says...
2:03pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Brian, Beckenham says...
3:11pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Excalibur, Bromley says...
4:04pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Great lies, bold, bare-faced and unapologetic, are relayed every day by every orifice of politicians in ways that would make Kim Jong-il proud.
Politicians like Fawthrop distort shamelessly in a desperate attempt to raise their profile. Backfired this time though, thanks to a brave police commander who was not prepared to stand by and let this go unchallenged. If only all the senior police officers and other high profile people would challenge the lying politicians in this way - it'd make them think twice before attempting to spin and maybe, just maybe make them more honest.
Mick, Petts Wood says...
5:41pm Tue 19 Aug 08
The behaviour of someone who should be setting an example, as both a local councillor and a magistrate
The deliberate misrepresentation of the facts
The lack of any sort of apology when the truh emerged
Anyone else, in any other job/trade/profession would have been forced to apologise. Politicians seem to be exempt for some reason.
Louise s., Bromley says...
6:10pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Hopefully other politicians will learn from this and similar incidents, stop believeing that the world revolves around them and actually do some work on behalf of those who elected them. A novel concept, but we can hope.
Thomas, Bromley says...
9:20pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Anyone else, in any other job/trade/profession would have been forced to apologise. Politicians seem to be exempt for some reason.. A politicisn apologise for misleading the public? Never. They're way to arrogant for that. Fawthrop will just slither back into his hole for another year or so and then emerge once again to make some other ridiculous proclamation.
Kevin, Bromley says...
9:38pm Tue 19 Aug 08
cassie, bromley says...
9:44pm Tue 19 Aug 08
i'm equally erm...'doubtful'...o
f both the police and councillor fawthrop so as i said just interested in what is needed to report graffiti as a crime etc etc
re agendas though, unfortunately, due to lack of info, there are so many 'ifs' it would be too lengthy to go through the whole range of scenarios...
however, if - if - the police could have but refused to record councillor fawthrop's reports then, regardless of any agenda on his part, he has a valid point, and one about which people should be concerned
bearing in mind of course i don't know what is needed to report graffiti as a crime, the hocr etc, and i don't know what are the 'protocols' between the council and police re graffiti...
re the latter it is perhaps a possibility those protocols might have the effect of 'reducing' crime stats
i'm not saying they are but, as it does cost council tax payers a lot of money to clean up graffiti...
if - if - said protocols so have that effect then that might be a matter of concern to ct payers, to everyone
Steve, Bromley says...
11:17pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
11:46pm Tue 19 Aug 08
Fawthrop wrote: Now to Commander Griggs.
I'm grateful that he has taken time to enter a message here. Though I do find it strange that he has never replied in person to one of my emails
This has been proved to be a lie in every sense of the word. From a Councillor. And a Magistrate.
Is it really too much to expect you to apologise to the police for attempting to politicise them, to your Conservative colleagues for shaming them by association with your New Lie-bour spin and to your constituents for misrepresenting them, Mr Fawthrop?
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
10:10am Thu 21 Aug 08
cassie, bromley says...
2:39am Fri 22 Aug 08
of the criminal damage figures he quotes how many people have been charged for graffiti related offences?
of the 1500 reported offences how many were for graffiti?
why is it that over the period from 1st april this year the council will have received 9000 graffiti reports, but mr griggs only has 1500?
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
8:38am Fri 22 Aug 08
Chris, Bickley says...
12:49pm Fri 22 Aug 08
Nigel, Orpington says...
1:17pm Fri 22 Aug 08
Chris, Bickley says...
2:26pm Fri 22 Aug 08
Duncan, Bromley says...
3:10pm Fri 22 Aug 08
James Douglas, Bromley says...
6:46pm Fri 22 Aug 08
It is just a gravy train with too many passengers.Station stop for Councillor Fawthrop, please!
Excalibur, Bromley says...
10:40am Sat 23 Aug 08
Rattler One Seven, Bromley says...
8:11am Sun 24 Aug 08
Councillor Simon Fawthrop says graffiti should be viewed as a crime
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Mark, Dartford says...
9:59am Tue 12 Aug 08