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Matthew Bourne, one of the world's most famous choreographers, talks to Kerry Ann Eustice about making ballet popular, Oliver! and loving the audience

NAMES in the world of dance don't come much bigger than Matthew Bourne. He's the Laban-trained dancer turned director choreographer behind fresh takes on traditional ballets and the big West End musicals.

He brought us a Dickensian Nutcracker adaptation drenched with lucid colour and fun, a bleak update of Swan Lake with homoerotic undercurrents and magnificent flock of all-male swans, the Carmen reworking The Car Man, Tim Burton's gothic fairytale Edward Scissorhands to the stage in ballet as well as the Olivier-Award winning choreography in the Mary Poppins musical.

"The fact we do more performances than any other company in the world now, as a dance company and we have the biggest audiences. People aren't aware of it."

These inventive productions have proved so popular, Bourne's company New Adventures perform more than any other and pull in audiences thicker and faster than any talent show backed musical. But more about those later.

During the interview, we talk about forthcoming new work such as a modernised adaptation of Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray; a dance piece debuting at this year's Edinburgh Festival, a partially-animated version of his famous Nutcracker, his involvement in Andrew Lloyd Webber's Oliver, his thoughts on Kevin Spacey's comments about TV talent searches (he admits to being a fan: "I love the Olivers. They're so genuine") and funding shortfalls.

"I much more listen to audiences than critics. They're the people who're going to come and see it. It's a much truer response, so I really listen."

He doesn't reserve this openness for interviews either. Matthew takes great pleasure in meeting audiences and will be doing so in an aftershow Q & A in Bromley on May 6.

"I do them quite a lot on tour actually," said Matthew about the sessions.

"It connects you with the audience, lets you hear what they have to say and, also, I like to try and create a company which feels friendly.

"It's my only chance to perform these days," he laughs. "My only chance to show off."

This interaction also helps shape new work and Matthew holds feedback from audiences in very high esteem.

"We have a new show, Dorian Gray, coming up in the summer," he said. "I'll want to hear what people saw, what people got, what they didn't get, what they thought the story was. All those things are really good to know. It's very difficult to know when you're so involved with it."

He added: "I much more listen to audiences than critics. They're the people who're going to come and see it.

"I get a much better view of things from people who go to the theatre once a month or once a week than these people going every night. It's a much truer response, so I really listen."

Attitudes such as this make it clear Matthew isn't interested in being exclusive. A point reinforced by the fact his work is popular and crowd-pleasing. Reviving an interest in ballet, however, was never a deliberate part of the plan, more of a fortuitous bonus; like finding the dress of your dreams, rushing it to the till and finding out it's on sale.

He said: "It wasn't like oh I'm here to change the way people view dance'.

"I do the work I want to do and, happily, I've brought the audience with me." Popular it may be, but Matthew and company are not devising dance to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

"I do the work I want to do and, happily, I've brought the audience with me."

New Adventures blends in bold and ambitious themes - such as sexuality - makes shows look gorgeous and imbues them with humour, which, for Matthew, is crucial.

If people laugh, it gives them a feeling of understanding and helps them connect with the work.

"It's story telling without words and for some people, that's quite unusual," said Matthew of his brand of dance.

"If you laugh at something you're in, you're half way there. It helps to keep the audience feeling not so alienated, as you do sometimes in dance."

He added: "Once you've got them there, you hope that you'll get them and they're going to love it and that's my challenge.

"It's not cynical at all. Even the thing of changing the classics it isn't out of rebellion because I never came through the classical world. I'm not rebelling against my traditional past. But some people have taken it as that."

The "changing of the classics" as he puts it, was where the hype all started. And Matthew returns to Bromley next week with Nutcracker, the adaptation which helped make his name.

Before Matthew was approached with the idea, he admits it was something he had never considered.

"I hadn't considered taking on a big famous ballet. I was doing choreography and dance, my own dance productions, but very small.

"So it is very special to me because it did set me on a path in something I've become known for and it did lead to Swan Lake, which was the one.

"I think if I'd had the choice, I probably would have gone for Swan Lake . I felt it had an abstract dance element to it, which is the swans.

"Nutcracker is very special to me because it did set me on a path in something I've become known for and it did lead to Swan Lake."

"But when the Nutcracker idea came along it was a bit of a shock and as soon as I delved into it and listened to all of the music, not just the famous bits, I thought this is great story-telling'. That's what was what I was into, telling stories.

"It wasn't my idea, it was put to me. It was a suggestion which just surprised me. Sometimes you need other people to point something out to you. I was obviously into telling stories, so having this great score was just a gift."

Matthew isn't the only person Nutcracker has impacted on. Since making popular dance, well, cool again, shows such as Nutcracker have opened up the world of dance.

"I think it has encouraged more people to be interested in dance, yeah," agrees Matthew.

"And I think there are a lot of things around at the moment that are doing that, like Strictly Come Dancing and Dancing on Ice. There are lot of people in the dance world who'd laugh if I said this, but they've been incredibly good at getting people interested in dance again and making people feel that joy in dance."

Matthew says the structure of these shows, where week after week we watch contestants grow and develop as performers gives viewers a real insight into the world of dance.

"When viewers watch someone get more skilled each week, they realise it's something they can get pleasure from themselves, whether it is watching or doing. I think it's fantastic and it really helps," said Matthew.

Matthew also admits to being a fan of I'd Do Anything. But, despite being involved in the production of Oliver which will follow, you wouldn't catch him on the judging panel.

"I love the Olivers. They're so genuine. I find them so very real. The girls sometimes seem a bit fakey."

"I love it," he said. "I really enjoy the show and I enjoyed the Joseph one.

"I don't know who it should be and I think there are some good girls there. And I love the Olivers. They're so genuine. I find them so very real. The girls sometimes seem a bit fakey. If they could get a bit of the reality of those boys, I think that would be very helpful.

"You get honesty from kids, a confidence you can't really create with adults.

It's the same with movement. When kids do movement it's so charming. They do their own version of it, you can't get them to do exactly what you want."

"I don't think it would be a good position to be in, on the panel, as a director/choreographer, rejecting people. I think it's all very scripted and I can't hide my feelings and I think you've got to. Sometimes I think oh that looks terrible and you can't say that," he laughs.

He added: "Andrew is the nearest to being completely honest. He's a clever man as well, what he does. Especially with some one such as Connie Fisher who he built up to making us believe she was some sort of star. And the way he talks about her now, I don't want to be controversial. but she's pretty average."

Naturally Matthew has an opinion on Kevin Spacey's recent comments about talent searches such as I'd Do Anything being shameless publicity for the musicals.

"Things like the Olivier Awards aren't even broadcast anymore on BBC Four. So where's the publicity for theatre on TV? It's gone."

"I think he, I'm sure he would agree with this himself, was slightly misquoted," said Matthew.

"He was probably saying; where's the show for plays we're doing? When do we get this big plug on TV?' "I think it was half joke and half serious and I know exactly what he means.

"Things like the Olivier Awards aren't even broadcast anymore on BBC Four. So where's the publicity for theatre on TV? It's gone.

"I think he would agree, any kind of promotion of live theatre on prime-time national television is pretty amazing. It doesn't just promote Oliver at Drury Lane , it promotes the idea of going to see a show and the idea of what it takes to be in a show."

"An understanding of the concept of doing eight shows a week, pitch problems, being the right age and having the desired look, puts the audiences in casting directors shoes, something Matthew believes has greatly benefitted the industry.

"I think Kevin Spacey would agree any kind of promotion of live theatre on prime-time national television is pretty amazing. "I'll have to tell him off when I see him."

"It makes them think about more shows than just the one," he said. "They may come to see a West End show for the first time ever and of course they're going to have a brilliant time at Drury Lane and then they're going to want to see more. Hopefully that will lead them to plays and things as well.

"We shouldn't reject any kind of publicity for something that doesn't get much at all on national television.

"I'll have to tell him off when I see him," he laughed.

Oliver and I'd Do Anything, aren't the only Matthew-involved shows gathering hype. New Adventures' forthcoming new work, Dorian Gray is already Edinburgh Festival's hot ticket.

Matthew came up with the idea, having set himself the task of adapting a novel for dance and wanting to something more experimental.

He admits ideas can come from anywhere. Transitions, the Laban-based graduate dance company he started out with, he says, was a huge influence.

The energy and "dirtyness" of the Carmen score inspired his male-driven The Car Man, for Swan Lake it was the prospect of royal scandal and the impact male swans could have.

"I've had Dorian Gray in my mind for a long time because the story intrigues me so much. Obviously if I'm going to delve into it in a deep way, it's not going to be bring the kids'."

"They've all got there own starting point," he said. "Sometimes it's the music, sometimes it's the ideas. It's often the putting together of ideas.

"But this one's a little bit more difficult because it's going to have new music and the more I'm delving into it, the more research I'm doing, the more ideas are coming up and the more ideas I'm finding.

"I've had it in my mind for a long time to do because the story intrigues me so much. I realised it was a more adult, smaller piece. Obviously if I'm going to delve into it in a deep way, it's not going to be bring the kids'," he laughs.

"So I had to wait for the right time to do it.

"But the reason I wanted to do it was I felt it had a lot of parallels with contemporary culture. I'm setting it now in modern times, with this obsession with being young, looking young, we're all obsessed with it and some more than others.

"I'm trying to reflect my own time for a change, because I've never done a piece set now, ever."

He added: "I believe in a way now, having had a lot of experience at this non-verbal storytelling, you could set me the challenge of turning anything into a dance piece and I could do it. Even if initially it felt impossible, I'd find a way of doing it."

This sort of confidence comes from years of experience, endless runs of success and working with amazing people. For example, Matthew says he'll often have no ideas for a show's choreography, go into the studio with a cast and come out with plenty.

And although his success is widely recognised, Matthew feels the extent of work and touring the company New Adventures does isn't.

"I believe in a way, now having had a lot of experience at this non-verbal storytelling, you could set me the challenge of turning anything into a dance piece."

"This phenomenon of the touring and the audiences is not being recognised by journalists or the Arts Council. They really haven't got a clue what we do," he said.

"The fact we do more performances than any other company in the world now, as a dance company and we have the biggest audiences. People aren't aware of it."

Funding is another of his gripes. Although initially a fan and supporter of the London Olympics, the reduction in money going into the arts, as a result, has put him off a little.

"If I'd known everyone in the arts was going to lose out to the Olympics I would have thought send it somewhere else. Ultimately what I hope is it's going to give us a lot. But in the short term it feels pretty bad we're all getting our funding reduced and finding it more difficult. A company like ours, which isn't revenue funded, we're funded by project.

"It's good to have a certain amount of freedom but for what we give we are extremely good value for money and we feel we should get a bit more on a regular basis and know we're going to get it so we can plan a bit more.

"We would like to get a regular amount of money which means we can do a new production every year and not have to worry about it.

"If I'd known everyone in the arts was going to lose out to the Olympics I would have thought send it somewhere else."

"Then we will do the rest, we will tour it and we will deliver the biggest audiences; you know all those things that we do, we think we should get a regular support."

It's interesting how even a choreographer whose work is now studied in A Level dance still struggles to secure funding. Luckily talking about his inclusion in the syllabus (something he's clearly thrilled about) steers him away from his funding gripes.

"It's great for the show, he said. "They know all the characters before they come and they cheer. They've got favourites.

"I never thought I'd be taught. It's just this weird thing getting kids coming up saying, I'm writing an essay on you'. It's odd. I hated school. There was nothing for me, there was nothing artistic.

"To think now I'm studied in school, I think they are so lucky to be able to talk about things like this, to be discussing Swan Lake and the Nutcracker and all the things that go into that. The subjects it must raise I think it's wonderful. I'm very happy about that."

Nutcracker May 6 to May 10, The Churchill, Bromley. 0870 060 6620.

11:32am Wednesday 30th April 2008

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